[Marketing] IRC transcript of today's Sugar Labs Marketing Meeting

[Sean DALY]

#sugar-meeting

<SeanDaly> Sean here, anyone around?
* tomeu is a round
<CanoeBerry> Sort of :)
<JT4sugar> Hello all
<SeanDaly> greetings Canoeberry, JT4sugar
<SeanDaly> let's try s-thing
<SeanDaly> #startmeeting
<SeanDaly> yep, meetbot in bot cloudy cuckooland :D
<SeanDaly> I'm thrilled since I managed to find a dirt cheap flight to
Bolzano for SugarCamp
<SeanDaly> I had forgotten Armistice Day which means one fewer
vacation day to take off :-)
<tomeu> kudos to the armistice
<SeanDaly> Hi tomeu
<tomeu> SeanDaly: but it's a hackfest, are you ready to code?
<SeanDaly> tomeu: I just told the list I want to take baby steps in Python
<SeanDaly> nobody knows this but I write clean bash and awk code ;-)
* walterbender is here too
<SeanDaly> in fact I use awk more often that Excel in the office :D
* walterbender is just learning to code... thanks to Tomeu's help
<tomeu> heh, it's not learning to code, it's learning to code the sugar way ;)
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<SeanDaly> tomeu: I try my best to be humble, but as a padawan Sugar
coder I will be even more humble :-)
<JT4sugar> tomeu, That should be the name of your book/video series
<tomeu> JT4sugar: ok, having a name is the first step ;)
<tomeu> SeanDaly: walterbender can give you some insights, it's true
that it isn't as straightforward as it should be
* SeanDaly thinks having aname VERY important ;-)
<SeanDaly> While in the UK earlier this year I bought a stack of
pricey GTK+ and Python books
<SeanDaly> but if I bring them I'll have no weight allowance left for netbooks
<JT4sugar> tomeu, Don't want to let all that mentoring to go unseen
<SeanDaly> is Mike Lee about by any chance?
<SeanDaly> I'm a bit short because Ii can't access last week(s log due
to server floopiness
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<SeanDaly> sdz about?
<SeanDaly> I'd like to brainstorm a bit about Blueberry launch, but I
don't like to do that without sdz about
<SeanDaly> Since the launch will be late november and possibly later,
<SeanDaly> in the heart of northern holiday season,
* walterbender pinged him
<SeanDaly> I am thinking we could surf the phenomenon of e-books
<SeanDaly> we discussed this last week
<SeanDaly> there are a number of ways to do it
<SeanDaly> one way could be "wow 'em with numbers" - "300 e-books
inside" , for example
<SeanDaly> perhaps a better way is to underline Sugar's international
reach: "books in 20 languages"
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<SeanDaly> the idea of bringing in a number is, word of mouth and blog
posts etc. react to numbers
<SeanDaly> we could also consider aligning the Blueberry launch with a
call for an open distribution system, for example
<SeanDaly> these are only ideas by the way... other ideas welcome
(don't like to be the only one talking)
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* SeanDaly silly me previous log is here:
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/marketing/2009-October/002207.html
it's the week before that's missing
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<SeanDaly> another angle is kids with disabilities
<JT4sugar> Might want to key on Project Learning-Etoys, Portfolio-TA
Portfolio, Journal, Physics and we would also like you to know about
Sugar's e-bookcapabilities.... "Learn How to Learn "and get Free books
while you do!
<SeanDaly> FYI, Microsoft is very careful to support disabled kids
software initiatives; almost implying that other providers cannot
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: yes we talked about E-Toys last week but I'm
afraid I haven't followed up with Bert
<SeanDaly> Another tack: beyond Activities and e-books, what best new
v0.86 features to call out?
<walterbender> SeanDaly: I like that angle... 0.86 has a great new
look, ease of use
<SeanDaly> (By the way the audiobook idea is I think too ambitious in
the Blueberry launch timeframe)
<SeanDaly> walterbender: so we can talk about improved ease-of-use
<walterbender> SeanDaly: which includes improvements to our ebook facilities
<SeanDaly> what changes to the look, for someone who already knows
Sugar a little? in other words how best to describe, but in a way that
will make nonusers curious?
<SeanDaly> great if we can tie in to e-books!
<SeanDaly> the way i see it is,
<walterbender> SeanDaly: see http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0,86/Notes
<SeanDaly> there's lots of industry and tech pundit excitement about
1) dedicated e-book hardware 2) e-book sales
<SeanDaly> and, Google has announced they will do #2 while #1 is a browser
<SeanDaly> I think it could be cool if we championed open learning for
e-books, as opposed to profit industry
<tomeu> and user-generated content, as opposed to big-company-generated
<walterbender> We are in a better place to do that now, thanks to the
efforts of unmadindu and others
<tomeu> SeanDaly: are you in contact with iris about it?
<walterbender> and shared margin notes
<tomeu> (audiobooks)
<walterbender> and text to speech for young readers
<SeanDaly> tomeu: got a nice mail from Iris it's great what she's
doing but haven't had chance to respond
<SeanDaly> text-to-speech is great
<tomeu> SeanDaly: would be great to involve people already using sugar
to contribute to such project
<tomeu> maybe an activity that automates the process
<SeanDaly> it's I think an excellent way to explain why computer-based
reading is good
<tomeu> walterbender: maybe mediamods could be interested?
<tomeu> could even be videobooks ;)
<walterbender> SeanDaly: there is a great project from Uruguay we
might want to feature
<SeanDaly> Itomeu: as I say i don't think we can get audiobooks done
in time for Blueberry launch,...
<walterbender> tomeu: not sure if they are ready, but we can ask...
maybe for the Cloudberry release next spring
<SeanDaly> walterbender: Uruguay good to mention, there has been lots
of press interest
* SeanDaly Cloudberry?
<tomeu> SeanDaly: sorry, didn't wanted to distract from the blueberry discussion
<walterbender> SeanDaly: we have an Read Aloud activity already
<SeanDaly> tomeu: actually I am really excited about audiobooks,
supporting "minority" languages
<walterbender> SDZ and I were kicking around names this morning
<SeanDaly> walterbender: is in a.sl.o?
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<SeanDaly> walterbender: haha
<walterbender> cloudberry is very popular in Scandinavia--home of lots
of FOSS hackers :)
<walterbender> SeanDaly: yes. I'll find you the link
<SeanDaly> I love the name - sounds ultramodern
<tomeu> SeanDaly: yeah, when someone attacks us again about cultural
imperialism, we should reply that our technology is actually the best
chance that marginal cultures have of survival
<SeanDaly> do scandinavian FOSS kackers like Cloudberry ice cream?
<walterbender> SeanDaly: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4035
<SeanDaly> tomeu: when I did the focus group at my kids school last
June several parents and teachers talked about translation or
language-learning tools with audio
<walterbender> SeanDaly: they like cloudberry liquor better :)
<SeanDaly> walterbender: ah yes Read ETexts
<SeanDaly> What I do need help with is forming a "policy position" for
e-books - an angle
<SeanDaly> Do we care about one format over another?
<SeanDaly> Do we stress the richness of our offer through several
Activities and multitude of formats?
<SeanDaly> Do we discuss sources like the Gutenberg Project?
<SeanDaly> I don't have a point of view myself, a bit of a latecomer
to e-book techno
<JT4sugar> Allowing students to get to as many different free books as
possible is key(many formats) and that's being done which is great
* unmadindu would probably push for PDF and Epub
<unmadindu> (as far as format goes)
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: yes, many pundits discuss different formats etc.
and could be interesting to say we support many formats... but what is
common thread? Free/open?
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<JT4sugar> SeanDaly, Exactly
<unmadindu> Open Standards + easy adaptibility to a variety of devices
with differing computing power and screensize ?
<walterbender> and easy sharing and annotation
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<unmadindu> walterbender: +1
<SeanDaly> I saw this interesting post about the Internet Archive's
BookServer project today:
http://www.mobilitysite.com/2009/10/the-internet-archives-bookserver-project/
<walterbender> be nice to be able to say that with Sugar, it is easy
to form a discussion group about a book
<walterbender> and of course, journal annotation about what you read
<SeanDaly> walterbender: I agree that's a great angle
<walterbender> for your portfolio
<SeanDaly> this is a topic I really need help with because the
marketer in me sees the enormous buzz about e-books, but
<SeanDaly> I lack firsthand experience
<unmadindu> SeanDaly: we are one of the first client side devices to
support the OPDS format offered by the bookserver project
<SeanDaly> i guess I should start reading off my XOs in the evening
instead of dead tress :D
<unmadindu> s/devices/software
<JT4sugar> You will see a lot of ebook offers in Holiday Season-Sugar
Wins with Other activities(Learn How to Learn) + ebooks
capabilities=Free on USB for under US$10
<SeanDaly> unmadindu: yes that link I just mentioned I think maybe SJ was there?
<unmadindu> SeanDaly: yeah - he should have been there for demoing the
recent work
<unmadindu> also, http://opl.rit.edu/project/page2pub would be
extremely interesting to build withing browse, may be
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: yes, or the "big number" approach: "300 Free E-books"
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<SeanDaly> unmadindu: very interesting...
<JT4sugar> SeanDaly, Put 300 ebooks on A Stick and watch them
dissapear like Candy Canes
<walterbender> the number 300 is somewhat aribtrary
<walterbender> we should be careful about that
<walterbender> we have all of Gutenberg available...
<SeanDaly> walterbender: it's 100% arbitrary
<walterbender> on the other hand, how much is specifically relevant to
kds and learning?
<SeanDaly> if we dared, we could say "1 million eBooks for $5"
<SeanDaly> or, we could say
<walterbender> how many books these days in the OCDL project, for example?
<unmadindu> IA has ~1.6 million books
<unmadindu> http://en.childrenslibrary.org/ is another interesting source
<SeanDaly> 20 eBooks for kids, in your language, and for once
translate the press release in advance into 30 languages
<JT4sugar> The number needs to be high enough to motivate someone to
buy the USB and download Sugar
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: yes, needs to sound "too good to be true"... then
turn out to be true :-)
<unmadindu> SeanDaly: what is the date for the press release to go out ?
<SeanDaly> walterbender: I'm looking at
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/New_Toolbar_Design ,
unfortunately there's no before/after visual
<SeanDaly> unmadindu: Blueberry launch in late november or early to
mid December; date not fixed yet
<walterbender> SeanDaly: we can easily povide the visuals
<SeanDaly> walterbender: maybe they are there but I didn't see
<SeanDaly> walterbender: before/after is always effective when GUI
<unmadindu> SeanDaly: ok, so if we have the PR material around 1-2
weeks in advance, I can poke the l10n team (usually the trick is to
include a weekend in between)
<SeanDaly> unmadindu: we have often gotten PR out the door 30 minutes
before deadline, but for once I wouldn't mind doing it in advance and
planning as big a splash as we can
<walterbender> SeanDaly: I'll add a few before pictures to the 0.86 notes
<unmadindu> SeanDaly: ok :-)
<SeanDaly> I do believe e-book theme will raise awareness
<SeanDaly> and, interesting to contrast free/open and minority
langugaes with closed/proprietary/hardware-specific only in English
<SeanDaly> annotation and sharing great angle, since
<SeanDaly> dedicated e-readers are designed for individual use, not sharing
<JT4sugar> If we do multiple language ebook angle will there be a
Collection of Blueberry images(Each with Book bundle in Home
language)-If so we should put out request for book bundles for each
language
<SeanDaly> the e-book "market" is young, just like the childrens'
software "market"; which means we sidestep fighting entrenched players
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: not sure multiple images necessary... ebooks not
voluminous like audiobooks
<SeanDaly> on the other hand we may want to simplify SoaS
language/keyboard config
<SeanDaly> of course i don't want to get into that without sdz input
<JT4sugar> Not everyone that receives the stick will have
connectivity-Having a bundle in home language to begin with is a big
plus if its possible
<tomeu> SeanDaly: unmadindu implemented that and is aware of OLPC's
requirements, btw
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: yes that's what I mean, a bundle
<SeanDaly> I might be talking nonsense but possible to store bundles
by language? en, es,fr,de,pt etc ?
<walterbender> SeanDaly: I added a before image to the release
notes... to my eye the old stuff looks really klunky
<SeanDaly> walterbender: are GUI changes response to feedback?
<SeanDaly> i ask because it's one of the old myths to dispel, that
interface came from an ivory tower not classroom experience, etc.
<walterbender> SeanDaly: yes
<SeanDaly> even today, Intel Classmate marketing makes that claim,
dissing OLPC really
<SeanDaly> I have organized a booth for France's Educatice show Nov.
18-20 and Intel will be there with Classmate offer
<SeanDaly> I'll be there with my two Classmates running SoaS :-)
<tomeu> SeanDaly: you know my plans to push further for feedback from
the field driving development, right?
<tomeu> SeanDaly: that would benefit from support form the marketing
side of things
<SeanDaly> tomeu: yes very important I had mentioned importance of
that in my SLOBs platform
<tomeu> SeanDaly: saw the google form I sent to iaep? if you have
feedback on it, now is the moment
<tomeu> but in any case, I plan to do several iterations
<SeanDaly> but communicating with the field is not marketing -
marketing trying to reach people who don't know us, and change
perceptions of those who do; field feedback more organization with
finding known contacts and followup etc.
<SeanDaly> what kind of support do you have in mind?
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* SeanDaly needs to run soon...
<tomeu> SeanDaly: help explaining how we work
<tomeu> SeanDaly: I think several big users of sugar are not involved
in sugarlabs because don't know how we work
<tomeu> though this may be more sales than marketing, dunno
<tomeu> but by reaching deployers in this way, we may be able to: 1)
explain better how we work, 2) ask for volunteers more effectively
<SeanDaly> tomeu: i don't want to get picky with words, sorry
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<tomeu> or perhaps advocacy, even
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<SeanDaly> it's just that reaching deployers is more like a targeted
mailing than a press release
<SeanDaly> of course, first step is identifying contacts
<tomeu> SeanDaly: certainly not a press release, more a learning process
<tomeu> what we do goes against many preconceptions that people in
positions of power have about how things get done
<SeanDaly> tomeu: also... many large deployments in Spanish speaking
countries... and I don't speak Spanish :-(
<tomeu> SeanDaly: I think we should get the local labs involved in this
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<tomeu> most of them are in spanish-speaking coutnries
<tomeu> and is in their direct interest
<JT4sugar> Communicating with the field should be a part of marketing
to some degree because those individuals can be our best marketers-How
can they spread the word, How they can help recruit
<SeanDaly> tomeu: we first discussed feedback issues the week i
arrived at Sugar Labs...
<SeanDaly> I haven't been able to work on that more
<tomeu> JT4sugar: yes, I think there's some value in positioning
ourselves as a regular producer of software, but this won't be enough
because we need to get resources to keep producing and we don't sell
anything
<tomeu> SeanDaly: no hurry, this is something that will take lots of time
<tomeu> decision makers in administrations deploying sugar won't
understand what FOSS is in one week
<tomeu> nor one year
<SeanDaly> Who at OLPC can help us with contacts if no Local Labs in country?
<tomeu> but I think this will be contagious
<tomeu> SeanDaly: olpc la has shown interest
<tomeu> SeanDaly: claudia, specifically
<tomeu> SeanDaly: CanoeBerry may be able to help as well
<JT4sugar> We need to find a Spanish speaking Sean Daly-a counterpart
<tomeu> SeanDaly: we can do the following: I send the form that I have
to the closest contacts we have. afterwards we study the feedback and
decide how to better focus the feedback form and how to wide the reach
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: ever read The Secret Sharer by Joseph Conrad?
<tomeu> JT4sugar: let's make a call to our local labs for a marketing
coordinator?
* tomeu loves conrad
<SeanDaly> I wouldn't mind having doppelgangers in Spanish, Portugese,
but the world would be dull if everyone thought like me :D
<JT4sugar> SeanDaly, I have not I will look into
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: a short book and worth the read IMHO :-)
* SeanDaly has to run very very soon...
<SeanDaly> tomeu: will look at form
<SeanDaly> any other marketing topics for today?
<JT4sugar> tomeu, I think that's the right idea-Start asking questions
get some feedback then ask more-Every two weeks will keep them
interested-Be sure to pint out how feedback turns into code and the
open source timeline so they know what to expect
<JT4sugar> Making a point to mention the changes came from feedback in
the press release and then asking for Teachers, Students, Developers
to join the Sugar Community so they can have their own an impact on
learning
<SeanDaly> in my experience short simple feedback best way to start,
to establish connection without asking for too much effort
<tomeu> JT4sugar: yes, I'm still unsure about how best to communicate
to the side-observers the success of the other ones that jumped to
help
<SeanDaly> easier to consolidate too
<tomeu> SeanDaly: yes, have had that in mind
<tomeu> thought may require more effort later to consolidate the feedback
<CanoeBerry> tomeu: We have a few growing microdeployments that can
help too.. eg. stuff in Vietnam, Montreal etc etc -- often only 10
XO's but still plenty of thoughtful feedback if properly nurtured:
<CanoeBerry> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Projects
<tomeu> I hope that there can be some peer pressure on the deployers
that didn't wanted to cooperate
<tomeu> CanoeBerry: that sounds great
<CanoeBerry> (Contributors Program has been actively seeding 10-XO
experiments this year)
<SeanDaly> i've done some market studies and usually the best approach
is 5-part question: slightly agree, strongly agree, slightly disagree,
strongly disagree, don't know
<JT4sugar> Find a way to contact them directly and ask them what it
takes-I have been doing Skype calls with Gerald Ardito now he is
contributing
<tomeu> SeanDaly: ok, will await your comments
<SeanDaly> wording is often different, but this approach allows
consolidation of "agree vs. disagree"
<tomeu> SeanDaly: that's easy to do in google forms
<tomeu> JT4sugar: aha! you were the responsible for that!
<tomeu> JT4sugar: it's very nice to see gerald participating
<SeanDaly> and, in cases where strongly outnumbers slightly in either
direction, shows exceptional areas or areas which need urgent work
<CanoeBerry> Aside: Vietnam & Montreal are just 2 that happened to
email me overnight, but anyway they are here:
<CanoeBerry> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Projects/EnfantsEducation
<CanoeBerry> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Vung_Vieng_Fishing_Vietnam
<tomeu> for now, plan to have a form in english and another in spanish
<tomeu> but if we can get more languages, the better
<SeanDaly> JT4sugar: very interested in what Gerald is doing
<tomeu> though we'll need as well help with translating the results
<JT4sugar> tomeu, I'm still working on getting the Six other Teachers
to join in-We are trying out Skype plus online collaborative Mind
Mapping tonite-
<SeanDaly> I may go through NYC before the end of the year, would like
to visit him
<tomeu> JT4sugar: have fun! ;)
<CanoeBerry> SeanDaly: consider Nov 21 in NYC?
<CanoeBerry> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-October/008941.html
<SeanDaly> CanoeBerry: difficult because I am manning Paris Educatice
OLPC/Sugar Labs booth Nov 19th and 20th
<CanoeBerry> Right.
<JT4sugar> tomeu, Let you know if it works well and if practical to
use for feedback purposes
<tomeu> JT4sugar: cool, thanks
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<SeanDaly> CanoeBerry: alternatively, since or booth can only be 2 out
of the 3 days, I could consider flying off to NYC
<CanoeBerry> Mike Lee & I hope to finalize NYC around Nov 21 within a
day or two.
<SeanDaly> problem is, low fares very difficult around Thanksgiving
<CanoeBerry> This is a week before Thanksgiving FYI.
<SeanDaly> I am hoping to visit Boston before end of year, via NYC to see family
<SeanDaly> OK will reflect on that - I have to go now :-)
<CanoeBerry> Ciao-- still working on visiting my Italian Stallion friends..