[Sugar-devel] Fwd: sugar ui

[David Brown]

thanks for your replies, walter.  i believe you were on the original ui
design team and have been with olpc since, so that would make you the key
person, designconceptwise.

agree absolutely that "obviousness" (after "Horton,W. (1993) Let's Do Away
With Manuals...Before They Do Away With Us. *Technical Communication*,
First Quarter 1993.") is much easier said than done.  that makes it
something worth spending a lot of time on.  but, after Heidegger, i suggest
that the obviousness of an interface to a tool for learning - its
"readiness to hand" - and its utility for learning are precisely
correlated.  i see xo as a vehicle (a window) for learning, rather than
something to be learned.  Papert's LOGO is a nice example of a tool that is
ready to hand, even if its implementations often got in the way :)

so, perhaps i may begin by (re)asking the question: what do xo users want
to do?

maybe they would say:

play
or learn
or meet/make friends


so xo could simply offer them these three alternative doors (links,
windows. whatever) as its homebase ui.  there could be other links for
advanced users, but the basic home ui should be aimed at first-time users.

opening a door takes you into another room with its own menu, etc

xo is supposed to be educational, so play offerrings should have an
educational aspect to them.

we learn through play, so learning activities should be playful

and when we meet friends, we play or learn with/from them

so whichever we choose, we end up learning something.

next, how do kids learn?
- by imitating (that's how we learn our mother language)
- by exploring
- by watching/listening
- by experimenting  (eg making their own movies)

i feel that experimenting with xo itself should not be part of its design
purpose, but rather that xo should be a friendly tool to enable them to
explore things that will help them learn things that would be useful to
them now or later in life

such as:
  first aid - what happens when you fall down and cut your knee?
  compound interest - what happens if you borrow money?
  musical instruments and the noises they make
  etc etc

when it comes to exploring, like so many others, i have found google search
to be a very useful ready-to-hand tool for exploring, so reckon it should
be built in (one can search a local net if internet is not available)

the other notion i would like to see changed is the user-centric view of
the world.  we are necessarily the centre of our perceptions, but (i
advocate) should not be the centre of our conceptions - rather we should
see ourselves as one of many.  therefore, i would not have an abstract xo
avatar at the centre of the screen surrounded by a ring of hieroglyphs
things or impersonal icons denoting other people.

personalisation of ui - xo could let them plaster their homebase with
images they like, just as microsoft or ubuntu users choose their own
background images.  even hardnosed businessmen often have photos of their
family on their desks...

and make it easy for users to choose their own size/style of pointing icon
(i hate that intrusively huge black arrow! - and although i (think i)
followed the instructions i was given to change it, they didnt work).

on the subject of EFL, you mentioned "Lots of separate efforts in the area.
C. Scott is leading one. I am working with .NI and .PY on another. Love to
get more input/help."

please let me know how/where to provide input/help.  i have started
compiling a list of quality open/freeware already out there that could be
used/remixed/cherry-picked.

but to learn to speak english, watching movies and doing quizzes is not
enough.   there is *only* one way: you have to *speak* english.  you can't
learn to swim by watching a movie (although that does help).  so an
xo-based english tutor has to enable its users to speak and be understood.
 that means having a person at the other end.  synchronous conversation is
the best, but when that is not possible, asynchronous conversation is
better than nothing.  voicemail.  later down the track, there may be ai
good enough to fulfil the role.  but much much later...

some english speakers want to learn russian.  and some russian speakers
want to learn english.  xonet (assuming there is such a thing) could put
them in touch with each other so they can each learn the other's language
with the guidance of a
Capretz<http://www.learner.org/resources/series83.html>-style
development.

which brings me to Skype.  is it part of the standard release?  i think it
should be.

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david


On 11 August 2012 00:52, Walter Bender <walter.bender at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:18 PM, David Brown <djhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: David Brown <djhbrown at gmail.com>
> > Date: 10 August 2012 12:13
> > Subject: sugar ui
> > To: Frederick Grose <fgrose at gmail.com>, xorduino at gmail.com,
> > volunteer at laptop.org
> >
> >
> > dear olpcers,
> >
> > i am a recently retired computer scientist who would like to contribute
> > design ideas to the project.   my cv is here.
> >
> > having looked at the sugar interface, my first impression is that it
> needs a
> > complete rework.  i do not know what its users (kids) make of it though,
> nor
> > can i find any data on user experiences.
>
> There is little data in English, since most Sugar users are not native
> English speakers. But there are quite a few studies in Spanish
> (although less specific to the UI details and more focused on the
> overall impact.) You can find some materials here:
>
> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Recursos_en_espanol#Evaluaci.C3.B3n_de_Proyectos
>
> >
> > i'm disappointed not to find any openly-published separately-produced k12
> > stuff on xo; perhaps it is all platform-dependent?
>
> Not sure what you are referring to.
>
> >  sugar is based on fedora
> > i believe, so would it run any app written for fedora?
>
> Yes... but not all apps run equally as well, since Sugar restricts
> apps to single windows. (e.g., inkscape works well, the gimp not so
> well).
>
> >
> > aside from that, i would be interested to contribute to an english
> language
> > learning project.  there is a ton of stuff already out there which could
> be
> > collected together, rather than reinvent the wheel.
>
> Lots of separate efforts in the area. C. Scott is leading one. I am
> working with .NI and .PY on another. Love to get more input/help.
>
> >
> > is there a software development management structure?  who makes the
> release
> > decisions?
>
> We have a devel team and release managers.
>
> >
> > is there an olpc executive operations management structure?  why isnt
> olpc
> > in bed with national school curriculum/materials organisations?  or
> maybe it
> > is - but if so, why aren't xos available to schools who can afford to buy
> > them?
>
> It is a country by country decision. OLPC doesn't have the resources
> to operate unilaterally, nor should it.
>
> >
> > what is the target age range of xo users?
>
> 6-12. The new machines with touch could reach a younger audience.
>
> >
> > i like the notion of sugar network, but when i look at the screenshots on
> > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Network/Tutorial i find it hard to
> > imagine what a child would do with it.  a screen full of coloured x's
> does
> > not convey any useful information other than the number of them... it
> reads
> > as if it was made by unix enthusiasts for unix enthusiasts
> >
> > scott's blog mentions an effort last year to develop narrative
> interfaces -
> > this sounds like a good idea, did anything come of it?  i looked at the
> > video by Angela Chang but couldn't find any contact info for her.  i
> noticed
> > the text she was displaying is not read out aloud at the time it is
> > displayed, which i would have thought is vital for a language learning
> tool.
> > she also seems to be of a mind that children would use it with their
> parents
> > in attendance, but children need to be able to learn a foreign language
> > without their parents' help.
> >
> > this raises a general point, surely xo needs to be an "obvious"
> interface??
> > (ie users should not need any outside help to use it.  it should be
> "ready
> > to hand").
>
> Easier said than done. But your ideas for making things more "obvious"
> are welcome. But, FWIW, obvious and impact-on-learning are not always
> coincident.
>
> regards.
>
> -walter
>
> >
> > david
> >
> > website <http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home>
> > +61(0)266537638
> > +61(0)488471949
> >
> > On 10 August 2012 01:58, Frederick Grose <fgrose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 12:51 AM, David Brown <djhbrown at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> thanks for your comprehensive reply, Fred.  i have looked at the links
> >>> you cited.  i am surprised olpc is still using irc chat and mail lists
> - is
> >>> there an operational reason for this?
> >>
> >>
> >> The hardware & software developers at OLPC and Sugar Labs are most
> >> comfortable with IRC and mailing lists as they are part of their current
> >> cultural tradition (they feel part of the free/libre/open-source
> software
> >> tradition). Many are loath to using alternative, especially commercial
> >> software.  The support staff and others at OLPC might be excepted from
> this
> >> characterization (in my estimation) as their work tools must align with
> >> standard business software.
> >>
> >>> things like design require a lot of thought, and chat is not the best
> way
> >>> to provoke thought, as exemplified by the inanity of academic
> department
> >>> meetings!.  chat is good for one-on-one socialising though.
> >>>
> >>> here is one basic principle i would advocate:the xo interface (which is
> >>> intendedly predicated upon activity and communication) needs to be good
> >>> enough (suitable) for xo developers to use it for their own group
> >>> communication.... it's clearly not as it stands.
> >>>
> >>> you mention "developers" and i read somewhere about "core developers".
>  i
> >>> imagine there is a team somewhere, probably in Miami, that drives the
> >>> development.  those are the people i would like to communicate with to
> start
> >>> with, to jointly come up with a better basic design than the current
> one.
> >>> then it could be implemented, bench tested and then beta tested on the
> user
> >>> community.
> >>
> >>
> >> The basic Sugar design came from Pentagram's Lisa Strausfeld, Christian
> >> Marc Schmidt and Takaaki Okada collaborating with Walter Bender and Eben
> >> Eliason at OLPC.  Only Walter Bender is active with Sugar Labs or OLPC.
> >>
> >> C. Scott Ananian, Director of New Technologies at OLPC, has a blog that
> >> tracks his thinking and work.  Other current design work centers on
> touch
> >> input and community collaboration.
> >>
> >>> i thought about subscribing to
> >>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/Sugar-devel but it is bound to
> contain
> >>> lots of emails about implementation details that do not interest me -
> my
> >>> focus is solely on the user-level design style, principles, purpose,
> etc
> >>
> >>
> >> The list will accept a non-subscriber submission (after a delay for
> >> moderation); or, you could use a Gmail filter, for example on [DESIGN],
> to
> >> limit your reading.
> >>
> >>> are you a "core developer"?  if home page design is a key interest of
> >>> yours, perhaps we could exchange ideas by email?
> >>
> >>
> >> I am a volunteer, wiki coordinator for Sugar Labs, and work on Sugar on
> a
> >> Stick installation and replication scripts.
> >>
> >> Alternative ideas and designs for the Home view would best be shared in
> >> the wiki (such as on a personal page linked to the discussion page)
> with an
> >> accompanying post to Sugar-devel.
> >>
> >> Thanks for your interest.         --Fred
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > website <http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home>
> > +61(0)266537638
> > +61(0)488471949
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>



-- 
website <http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home>
+61(0)266537638
+61(0)488471949
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