[Sugar-devel] Fwd: sugar ui

[Anish Mangal]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:22 PM, Walter Bender <walter.bender at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:18 PM, David Brown <djhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: David Brown <djhbrown at gmail.com>
>> Date: 10 August 2012 12:13
>> Subject: sugar ui
>> To: Frederick Grose <fgrose at gmail.com>, xorduino at gmail.com,
>> volunteer at laptop.org
>>
>>
>> dear olpcers,
>>
>> i am a recently retired computer scientist who would like to contribute
>> design ideas to the project.   my cv is here.
>>
>> having looked at the sugar interface, my first impression is that it needs a
>> complete rework.  i do not know what its users (kids) make of it though, nor
>> can i find any data on user experiences.
>
> There is little data in English, since most Sugar users are not native
> English speakers. But there are quite a few studies in Spanish
> (although less specific to the UI details and more focused on the
> overall impact.) You can find some materials here:
>
> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Recursos_en_espanol#Evaluaci.C3.B3n_de_Proyectos
>
>>
>> i'm disappointed not to find any openly-published separately-produced k12
>> stuff on xo; perhaps it is all platform-dependent?
>
> Not sure what you are referring to.
>
>>  sugar is based on fedora
>> i believe, so would it run any app written for fedora?
>
> Yes... but not all apps run equally as well, since Sugar restricts
> apps to single windows. (e.g., inkscape works well, the gimp not so
> well).
>
>>
>> aside from that, i would be interested to contribute to an english language
>> learning project.  there is a ton of stuff already out there which could be
>> collected together, rather than reinvent the wheel.
>
> Lots of separate efforts in the area. C. Scott is leading one. I am
> working with .NI and .PY on another. Love to get more input/help.
>
>>
>> is there a software development management structure?  who makes the release
>> decisions?
>
> We have a devel team and release managers.
>
>>
>> is there an olpc executive operations management structure?  why isnt olpc
>> in bed with national school curriculum/materials organisations?  or maybe it
>> is - but if so, why aren't xos available to schools who can afford to buy
>> them?
>
> It is a country by country decision. OLPC doesn't have the resources
> to operate unilaterally, nor should it.
>
>>
>> what is the target age range of xo users?
>
> 6-12. The new machines with touch could reach a younger audience.
>
>>
>> i like the notion of sugar network, but when i look at the screenshots on
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Network/Tutorial i find it hard to
>> imagine what a child would do with it.  a screen full of coloured x's does
>> not convey any useful information other than the number of them... it reads
>> as if it was made by unix enthusiasts for unix enthusiasts
>>
>> scott's blog mentions an effort last year to develop narrative interfaces -
>> this sounds like a good idea, did anything come of it?  i looked at the
>> video by Angela Chang but couldn't find any contact info for her.  i noticed
>> the text she was displaying is not read out aloud at the time it is
>> displayed, which i would have thought is vital for a language learning tool.
>> she also seems to be of a mind that children would use it with their parents
>> in attendance, but children need to be able to learn a foreign language
>> without their parents' help.
>>
>> this raises a general point, surely xo needs to be an "obvious" interface??
>> (ie users should not need any outside help to use it.  it should be "ready
>> to hand").
>
> Easier said than done. But your ideas for making things more "obvious"
> are welcome. But, FWIW, obvious and impact-on-learning are not always
> coincident.
>

I've found that sometimes when people say "obvious" or "intuitive"
what they really mean is "familiar".

FWIW, I've found sugar to be very "obvious" ;-), so obvious infact,
that kids in the remote Indian village of Bhagmalpur were able to
operate their laptops (eg. record audio/video clips), even when some
of the machines had their language interface set to spanish, while
others were in english and the language the kids actually know well is
Hindi (a different script). Go figure!

-anish

> regards.
>
> -walter
>
>>
>> david
>>
>> website <http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home>
>> +61(0)266537638
>> +61(0)488471949
>>
>> On 10 August 2012 01:58, Frederick Grose <fgrose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 12:51 AM, David Brown <djhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> thanks for your comprehensive reply, Fred.  i have looked at the links
>>>> you cited.  i am surprised olpc is still using irc chat and mail lists - is
>>>> there an operational reason for this?
>>>
>>>
>>> The hardware & software developers at OLPC and Sugar Labs are most
>>> comfortable with IRC and mailing lists as they are part of their current
>>> cultural tradition (they feel part of the free/libre/open-source software
>>> tradition). Many are loath to using alternative, especially commercial
>>> software.  The support staff and others at OLPC might be excepted from this
>>> characterization (in my estimation) as their work tools must align with
>>> standard business software.
>>>
>>>> things like design require a lot of thought, and chat is not the best way
>>>> to provoke thought, as exemplified by the inanity of academic department
>>>> meetings!.  chat is good for one-on-one socialising though.
>>>>
>>>> here is one basic principle i would advocate:the xo interface (which is
>>>> intendedly predicated upon activity and communication) needs to be good
>>>> enough (suitable) for xo developers to use it for their own group
>>>> communication.... it's clearly not as it stands.
>>>>
>>>> you mention "developers" and i read somewhere about "core developers".  i
>>>> imagine there is a team somewhere, probably in Miami, that drives the
>>>> development.  those are the people i would like to communicate with to start
>>>> with, to jointly come up with a better basic design than the current one.
>>>> then it could be implemented, bench tested and then beta tested on the user
>>>> community.
>>>
>>>
>>> The basic Sugar design came from Pentagram's Lisa Strausfeld, Christian
>>> Marc Schmidt and Takaaki Okada collaborating with Walter Bender and Eben
>>> Eliason at OLPC.  Only Walter Bender is active with Sugar Labs or OLPC.
>>>
>>> C. Scott Ananian, Director of New Technologies at OLPC, has a blog that
>>> tracks his thinking and work.  Other current design work centers on touch
>>> input and community collaboration.
>>>
>>>> i thought about subscribing to
>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/Sugar-devel but it is bound to contain
>>>> lots of emails about implementation details that do not interest me - my
>>>> focus is solely on the user-level design style, principles, purpose, etc
>>>
>>>
>>> The list will accept a non-subscriber submission (after a delay for
>>> moderation); or, you could use a Gmail filter, for example on [DESIGN], to
>>> limit your reading.
>>>
>>>> are you a "core developer"?  if home page design is a key interest of
>>>> yours, perhaps we could exchange ideas by email?
>>>
>>>
>>> I am a volunteer, wiki coordinator for Sugar Labs, and work on Sugar on a
>>> Stick installation and replication scripts.
>>>
>>> Alternative ideas and designs for the Home view would best be shared in
>>> the wiki (such as on a personal page linked to the discussion page) with an
>>> accompanying post to Sugar-devel.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your interest.         --Fred
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> website <http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home>
>> +61(0)266537638
>> +61(0)488471949
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
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-- 
Anish | anish at sugarlabs.org