[IAEP] IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 29

Tony Anderson tony_anderson at usa.net
Sun Feb 19 21:30:29 EST 2017


I am glad to see this discussion focusing on the technical issues rather 
than hiring someone to advertise a non-product.

However, I think the discussion still misses the main point I was trying 
to make. If we want Sugar to be a learning platform of choice in
going forward, we must make it easily available on platforms that are in 
common use and not limit it to the XO. Making Sugar widely available
today requires multiple versions (Windows PC, Chromebooks, Android 
tablets, Raspberry Pi and so on). Our goal is to make it available to 
educators who are evaluating options for deployment so, for example, if 
it is readily available for the Windows PC (e.g. as an installable 
application), more educators will be able to find it and try it out.

It is incredibly discouraging to see emails in which an update to the 
StopWatch activity is hampered by a problem with qemu or an email from 
James Cameron describing an emergency patch to the Calculate activity 
which can be installed by building a new signed image!

One of the brilliant design decisions in Sugar is to support activities 
written in Python (and now html), provide them on 
activities.sugarlabs.org, and to provide version control by incrementing 
version numbers. Now we have gotten entangled in git, installing 
activiies by generating new images, virtual machines and who knows what 
other pitfalls.

If you want to update Calculate to sugar3, make a bundle and put it in 
aslo with an incremental increase in version number and an appropriate 
comment on the aslo page. Similarly, if you need a version of StopWatch 
which incorporates the latest translation strings (which, of course, are 
text in the base version), then do it, put it on ASLO with an 
incremented version number and a comment on the ASLO page.

It is possible for our users to write a new activity in Python and with 
pippy generate a valid Sugar activity. Why are we not featuring this 
unique and magnificent capability of Sugar?

Tony


On 02/19/2017 08:24 PM, iaep-request at lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>     1.  [SoaS] SoaS frustrations & call for proposals (Frederick Grose)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 13:17:49 -0500
> From: Frederick Grose <fgrose at gmail.com>
> To: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org, soas at lists.sugarlabs.org
> Subject: [IAEP]  [SoaS] SoaS frustrations & call for proposals
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAEcBt+UuPHfGcO=cp2ARu69nTS17cQ4rJLXv9JbOJt638qXGTg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
>> from Scale, an adopter wants to know:
>>
>> 1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
>> using it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
>> 2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
>> available?
>> 3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?
>>
>> Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
>> Wiki, Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of
>> tools.
>> Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
>> Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.
>>
>> For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
>> how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
>> 650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent. They
>> say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
>> running Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.
>>
>> Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
>> that?') requires the use of the command:
>>
>> sudo dnf install livecd-tools
>>
>> No potential adopter would persist even to this point.
>>
>> The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
>> The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
>> intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.
>>
>> In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
>> This should be featured.
>>
>> Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
>> download which can be transfered to a usb stick by a single dd command.
>> This stick would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an
>> available block of hard drive on any amd_64 machine. A second image ideally
>> would be installable as a Window application with a supported Windows
>> installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a Debian image which
>> can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry Pi 3 (and possibly
>> 2).
>>
>> Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
>> on the main screen, not down six screens.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> On 02/15/2017 11:20 PM, iaep-request at lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:15:05 +0000
>> From: Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com> <cbigenho at hotmail.com>
>> To: Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> <bert at freudenbergs.de>
>> Cc: IAEP SugarLabs <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org> <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] pixel
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<CY4PR19MB1061668D2FC5EEF8CBBCD2CDCC5B0 at CY4PR19MB1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CY4PR19MB1061668D2FC5EEF8CBBCD2CDCC5B0 at CY4PR19MB1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
>> 	
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> +1 for Tony's comment!
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 15, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de<mailto:bert at freudenbergs.de> <bert at freudenbergs.de>> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:35 AM, Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net<mailto:tony_anderson at usa.net> <tony_anderson at usa.net>> wrote:
>> This is what I hoped Sugarlabs would do:
>> https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try- IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 15raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc <https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> Isn't that exactly what SoaS does?
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation
>>
>> - Bert -
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>> This discussion started with Tony's reference to PIXEL
> <https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc>,
> a live
> CD <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_CD> of the Raspberry Pi OS. That led
> to a reference to Sugar on a Stick
> <https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick> and a discussion of its
> ease of installation. From there the discussion got split as I addressed
> some technical issues on the SoaS mailing list, followed by Caryl giving
> some insights on the suitability of SoaS in comparison to Sugarizer
> <http://sugarizer.org/>.  Peter responded with more information on the
> breadth of technology currently served by SoaS
> <https://spins.fedoraproject.org/en/soas/>, the Fedora-Sugar Labs spin of
> Sugar.
>
> So I've brought both threads together here by cross posting a transcript.
>
>
> Praise be, Sugarizer has made great steps toward Sugar Labs​' technical
> goals <https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Technical_Goals> and
> deserves much greater investment as Caryl suggests.
>
> Yet there remains considerable value in the SoaS variants of Sugar, so
> attention is still deserved there to support the needs of another class of
> users and learners.
>
> To that end,  I notice that the Fedora 26 proposal submission deadline is
> fast approaching (21 Feb 2017) and so offer this thread and this feature
> page <https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/SoaS_next> for proposals.
>
> Thanks be given for your insights and efforts!
>
>
>
> Forwarded conversation
> Subject: Fwd: [IAEP] SoaS installation frustrations
> ------------------------
>
> From: Frederick Grose <fgrose at sugarlabs.org>
> Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:23 AM
> To: soas at lists.sugarlabs.org
> Cc: Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>, tony_anderson at usa.net
>
>
> See the posting below with inline suggestions.  The posting was to the IAEP
> mailing list for the general Sugar audience.  I've copied the discussion
> here to the SoaS list for technical followup.  Perhaps we could interest
> some Google Code-In or GSOC applicants to innovate on the installation
> issues.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net>
> Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 15
> To: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org
>
>
> Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
> from Scale, an adopter wants to know:
>
> 1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
> using it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
> 2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
> available?
> 3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?
>
> Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
> Wiki, Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of
> tools.
> Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
> Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.
>
> For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
> how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
> 650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent. They
> say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
> running Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.
>
> Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
> that?') requires the use of the command:
>
> sudo dnf install livecd-tools
>
> No potential adopter would persist even to this point.
>
> ​>> We should go back to including the livecd-tools package in SoaS and we
> should also copy the livecd-iso-to-disk script to the /LiveOS/ folder as
> was previously standard in Fedora, because installing SoaS with persistent
> storage is essential for the project goal of having a resumable Sugar
> environment in your pocket.​
>
> This is something Peter Robinson, our SoaS packager, can accomplish or
> advise us on.
>
> The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
> The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
> intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.
>
> In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
> This should be featured.
>
> Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
> download which can be transferred to a usb stick by a single dd command.
> This stick would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an
> available block of hard drive on any amd_64 machine.
>
> ​>> This is currently available, but not featured in our instructions as
> such an installation lacks persistence of user/learner Activities between
> boots.  However, it is the easiest way to demonstrate a live SoaS system​.
> Instructions should be updated.
>
> A second image ideally would be installable as a Window application with a
> supported Windows installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a
> Debian image which can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry Pi
> 3 (and possibly 2).
>
> Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
> on the main screen, not down six screens.
>
> Tony
>
> On 02/15/2017 11:20 PM, iaep-request at lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:15:05 +0000
> From: Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com> <cbigenho at hotmail.com>
> To: Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> <bert at freudenbergs.de>
> Cc: IAEP SugarLabs <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org> <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] pixel
> Message-ID:
> 	<CY4PR19MB1061668D2FC5EEF8CBBCD2CDCC5B0 at CY4PR19MB1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
> <CY4PR19MB1061668D2FC5EEF8CBBCD2CDCC5B0 at CY4PR19MB1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> +1 for Tony's comment!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 15, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Bert Freudenberg
> <bert at freudenbergs.de<mailto:bert at freudenbergs.de>
> <bert at freudenbergs.de>> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:35 AM, Tony Anderson
> <tony_anderson at usa.net<mailto:tony_anderson at usa.net>
> <tony_anderson at usa.net>> wrote:
> This is what I hoped Sugarlabs would do:
> https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc
>
> Tony
>
> Isn't that exactly what SoaS does?
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation
>
> - Bert -
>
> ______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep​
>
>
> For those interested alleviating these frustrations, the following links to
> previous efforts provide some background:
>
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Resources​
> <http://goog_127419843/>
>
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Goals
>> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/TODO
>
>     --Fred
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com>
> Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:30 PM
> To: "soas at lists.sugarlabs.org" <soas at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> Cc: "tony_anderson at usa.net" <tony_anderson at usa.net>
>
>
> Hi Guys...
>
>
> I'm sorry to stick a pin in your balloon, but I really think it is time to
> (gasp) retire SOAS! If your target market is education, it is still far too
> complex for most educators to want to even try to install it, much less
> write lesson plans that will utilize Sugar's Activities to help their
> students learn. As Tony knows, teachers simply don't have the time to learn
> about things like Terminal commands, what Gnu and Linux are etc.
> Unfortunately this is why Apple has such a grip on technology in schools...
> in the words of Steve Jobs (I think he was the one who said it) "It just
> works!"
>
>
> That is why I think our focus should shift to Sugarizer. It just works!
> Teachers, students, parents , and everyone else knows how to install an app
> on their device and Sugarizer is available to install on almost any device.
>
>
> What it needs now to make it a viable option for schools and other
> educational projects is some great documentation with lesson suggestions
> for the various Activities that are relevant to the work the students are
> doing... learning language arts by reading and writing, learning math by
> doing math, music by making music etc.
>
>
> This is one reason why I made a proposal last summer (that no one picked up
> on) that we begin with a special small edition, Sugarizer Primero or
> Sugarizer1° (1° is primero). It would have just those Activities that would
> be useful in the K-2 (Primary School). This small version would not include
> any war games so it could be used more universally.
>
>
> We could find some willing educators to test it and help develop lesson
> plan suggestions. These teachers should be paid for their work (from
> SugarLabs funds). We would need someone very familiar with using Sugar with
> students and with access to a lot of teachers and classes to test it. It
> seems that the perfect person for this would be Rosamel Norma Ramirez in
> Uruguay.
>
>
> So... as I said... sorry! But it is time to realistic about this and move
> on.
>
>
> Caryl
>
>
> P.S. For Tony... are you in the US? Are you coming to SCaLE March 3-5?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* SoaS <soas-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org> on behalf of Frederick
> Grose <fgrose at sugarlabs.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:23:31 AM
> *To:* soas at lists.sugarlabs.org
> *Cc:* tony_anderson at usa.net
> *Subject:* [SoaS] Fwd: [IAEP] SoaS installation frustrations
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SoaS mailing list
> SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
>
>
> ----------
> From: Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:41 PM
> To: Frederick Grose <fgrose at sugarlabs.org>
> Cc: Development of live Sugar distributions <soas at lists.sugarlabs.org>,
> tony_anderson at usa.net
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Frederick Grose <fgrose at sugarlabs.org>
> wrote:
>> See the posting below with inline suggestions.  The posting was to the
> IAEP
>> mailing list for the general Sugar audience.  I've copied the discussion
>> here to the SoaS list for technical followup.  Perhaps we could interest
>> some Google Code-In or GSOC applicants to innovate on the installation
>> issues.
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net>
>> Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 15
>> To: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>
>>
>> Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
>> from Scale, an adopter wants to know:
>>
>> 1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
> using
>> it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
>> 2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
>> available?
>> 3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?
>>
>> Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
> Wiki,
>> Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of tools.
>> Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
>> Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.
> The SoaS site it much better:
> https://spins.fedoraproject.org/soas/
>
>> For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
>> how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
>> 650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent.
> They
>> say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
> running
>> Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.
> Fedora has a Windows/MacOS/Linux graphical tool to write USB sticks
> and that is what should be used IMO.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_and_use_Live_USB
>
>> Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
>> that?') requires the use of the command:
>>
>> sudo dnf install livecd-tools
>>
>> No potential adopter would persist even to this point.
>>
>>>> We should go back to including the livecd-tools package in SoaS and we
>>>> should also copy the livecd-iso-to-disk script to the /LiveOS/ folder
> as was
>>>> previously standard in Fedora, because installing SoaS with persistent
>>>> storage is essential for the project goal of having a resumable Sugar
>>>> environment in your pocket.
>> This is something Peter Robinson, our SoaS packager, can accomplish or
>> advise us on.
> I need help if SoaS is to survive. I really don't have the time to maintain
> it.
>
> That said I think most of the instructions on the web site are garbage.
>
>> The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
>> The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
>> intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.
>>
>> In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
>> This should be featured.
> Why confuse users with a plethora of distributions? You go on about
> making it easier and less confusing where all that does it adds to the
> confusion.
>
>> Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
> download
>> which can be transferred to a usb stick by a single dd command. This stick
>> would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an available block
> of
>> hard drive on any amd_64 machine.
>>
>>>> This is currently available, but not featured in our instructions as
> such
>>>> an installation lacks persistence of user/learner Activities between
> boots.
>>>> However, it is the easiest way to demonstrate a live SoaS system.
>>>> Instructions should be updated.
>> A second image ideally would be installable as a Window application with a
>> supported Windows installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a
>> Debian image which can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry
> Pi
>> 3 (and possibly 2).
> We product SoaS on Fedora for the Raspberry Pi 2 and 3 already (plus
> around 200 other cheap ARM devices). Why do you need a Debian image
> where you could use the Fedora SoaS and ensure a consistent experience
> across all platforms.
>
>> Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
>> on the main screen, not down six screens.
> Get someone to actually write quality documentation for doing so.
> _______________________________________________
> SoaS mailing list
> SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 29
> *************************************



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