[IAEP] Etoys or Scratch?

[Steve Thomas]

Caryl,

Scratch is an excellent program and a good choice.  I also like Mike's use
of Audacity and then importing the sounds which will work in Scratch as
well.

Okay, now in trying to improve on "*almost* a white paper" here are some
additional thoughts:

As pointed out by Maria, another big advantage of Scratch is the online
community, its excellent website and its ability to foster
sharing/re-mixing,  This is a big missing in Etoys and Sugar in general.

Importing Pictures (non XO comparison as I do not think you can drag
Pictures onto Scratch or Etoys on the XO):

   - Scratch: You can drag a picture onto Scratch and the picture is added
   to the costume list for the current sprite/background you are editing.
   - Etoys:  You can drag a picture onto Etoys and it becomes a new object.


Importing Sounds:



   - Both can import via a "menu interface"  Scratch also allows drag and
   drop of sounds, Etoys does not.

Re-Use of works (graphics, scripts, sets of scripts and objects etc):

I really need to think about this more, but want to get some initial
thoughts down in a portion of my electronic memory (aka Gmail).  The basic
unit of sharing (and re-mixing?) is the project for both Scratch and Etoys.
 Yet you often want to share/re-use/re-mix smaller units such as
script/object/set of objects.  I guess an argument could be made that you
want kids to "build it themselves" and not simply "copy" (which in that
unique world called school is considered a no-no ;).  There are valid
reasons to have kids build things themselves, but it depends on your
"learning objectives" and what you want to make hard and what you want to
make easy.


   - Scratch - You can export a Sprite and then later import it for re-use.
    This form of sharing is not supported directly through the Scratch website
   (not sure why not, they could gather further stats on how kids re-mix and
   it might encourage more original work as a percentage of re-mixed projects)
   - Etoys - You can export an Object, but not in Etoys friendly mode, so
   basically not visible to most.  Another way to do this to place the objects
   in a shared flap (flaps are cool) or simply drag it into the Supplies flap
   and switch projects and drag it out.  Using these methods you can also
   share an interacting set of Objects.


Etoys also has a number of very useful artifacts such as Book, Holder,
Flaps and others.  Try creating a book in Scratch, its much easier in
Etoys.  Of course many other things are much easier in Scratch.

Another challenge with Etoys which I noticed in reading Mike's project
notes, is that while there are many powerful and different ways of doing
things in Etoys, they are not all easily discoverable and with the choices,
can come confusion.  For example in reading Mike's wonderfully done Project
Notes<http://www.scribd.com/doc/78921639/Lubuto-Letter-Board-Production-Notes-v1-December-2010>
I
noticed a couple of things:

First, I was struck by how he described the method to "change color":

He followed these steps:

   1. Get objects Halo
   2. click on Menu
   3. click on Change Color
   4. Select Color

Another way to do this (with one less step, two less steps if you just
resized as he did in the instructions) is:

   1. Get Objects Halo (not necessary if just re-sized)
   2. click on Eye Dropper in Halo
   3. change color


Also, the instructions seemed to imply that the user needed to "Repeat
creating transparent rectangles and assigning sounds and scripts for each
letter inthe artwork."  It would be much simpler and faster to simply copy
the Rectangle and modify the scripts to play the correct sound.  Now here
is where the power of Etoys shines (assuming you can discover how to use it
:)  Instead of copying the rectangle, you can create a sibling instance.
 This has the advantage of allowing you to change the script in one
Rectangle an it is changed in all the Rectangles.

How to deal with the "discoverability" of these things in Etoys is a
challenge.  A good teacher with knowledge of Etoys helps, but doesn't scale
well.

Stephen

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Mike Lee <curiouslee at gmail.com> wrote:

> Caryl,
>
> You have almost a white paper in Steve's amazing reply--much of which I
> have experienced first-hand.
>
> In developing the first grant proposal with Lubuto Library to secure
> funding to enable children in Lusaka, Zambia and local teachers to author
> their own lessons, we chose Etoys over Scratch almost three years ago.
> Though both programs were/are widely used and cross-platform (starting with
> Sugar!), Etoys files launch into a cleaner interface that is ready to
> present pre-programmed interactive content. Scratch opens into a
> multi-paned integrated development environment from which you have to
> manually start a full-screen playback window.
>
> I had doubts about the learnability of Etoys in the non-technical
> environment of a Zambian community library, but I was blown away when we
> received the 700 lessons structured by the teachers, and illustrated and
> assembled by the students. It took 18 months to accomplish the body of work
> with ad hoc support from me via Skype and emails. Kathleen Harness of Etoys
> Illinois provided some initial guidance and her help guides were very
> useful.
>
> If I were starting from scratch today to create interactive lessons that
> embodied a balance of authoring ease, language localization, post-release
> maintainability and cross-platform runtime, I wouldn't use Etoys or
> Scratch. I would start with the new EPUB3 ebook format and use rich media
> overlays which would be an approach that most satisfies all of the
> previously enumerated criteria. The "whys" around EPUB are way too much to
> get into here in an email.
>
> We can do a Skype call or Facetime if you want to hear more about the
> Lubuto Project. Below are a couple links you might find interesting...
>
> Production notes - December 2010
> http://www.scribd.com/mike_lee_7
>
> Some screenshots of the lessons in production
> http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=48600098314%40N01&q=lubuto&m=text
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>>  Hi All...
>>
>> FYI. I was a disaster volunteer with the ARC for 10+ years until I got
>> too involved with OLPC.  I no longer have the time for things like going on
>> extended (3-weeks minimum) deployments.  As part of my volunteer work I was
>> a disaster preparedness instructor. I am very aware of their policies and
>> regulations and see no problem with this proposed project.  I did not plan
>> to use their name and/or materials. We will "reverse engineer" them (think
>> Linux vs Unix).
>>
>> This project would be meeting 2 needs: 1) The need for a
>> "simple-and-fun-to-do" introduction to programming activity for upper
>> elementary and middle school young people and 2) The need for a
>> computer-based (offline) disaster preparedness activity for young people to
>> go along with a disaster network Contributors Program project that is in
>> the planning stages.
>>
>> We would be using something similar the what the ARC uses in its classes
>> and literature: http://rdcrss.org/KNUMO
>>
>> I am not here to discuss the merits of doing this.  All I asked was would
>> it be more appropriate to have the youth use use Etoys or Scratch and why.
>>
>> Thanks to those of you who have answered that question.  It is really
>> appreciated. If others have helpful suggestions about the programming
>> aspects of this proposed project, I would welcome them.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Caryl
>> ------------------------------
>> From: greenfeld at laptop.org
>> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 20:01:41 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys or Scratch?
>> To: droujkova at gmail.com
>> CC: cbigenho at hotmail.com; iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org;
>> support-gang at laptop.org
>>
>>
>> Note that I did not state that professional programmers had to do this,
>> although the way various states are leaning, licensed professional
>> programmers may be required to do something like this in the United States
>> within the next few years.
>>
>> I spent roughly 10 years doing volunteer ARES/RACES/emergency
>> communications work.   And from that work I know that practices vary by
>> region, and tend to change over time.
>>
>>
>> With disasters, there can be more misinformation than real information.
>> I clearly remember one of the major cable news networks cutting away from a
>> news conference after the September 11 attacks.  The mayor of New York was
>> asking people not to spread rumors.  What was the news station breaking out
>> of the press conference to report?  A rumor, which they actually said was a
>> rumor.
>>
>> Now I do not know who this guide is targeted for.  Different regions of
>> the world tend to encounter different disasters (earthquakes, hurricanes,
>> landslides, etc.).  And each targeted country may also have specific
>> information relevant to it.
>>
>>
>> If this guide just repeats information found in various reputable
>> sources, that may be safe, regardless of who makes it.  But reputation can
>> sometimes be a tricky thing to judge.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Maria Droujkova <droujkova at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> I am very concerned about undue professionalization of every aspect of
>> the life, versus the maker/DIY/crowdsourcing approach.
>>
>> Kids need to share their very imperfect ideas about serious life issues -
>> disasters, health, parenting, science... They need to share openly, and in
>> a space where discussion can happen. They also need to learn to check and
>> re-check anything they see in open spaces.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Maria Droujkova
>> 919-388-1721
>>
>> Make math your own, to make your own math
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Samuel Greenfeld <greenfeld at laptop.org>wrote:
>>
>> Although I cannot recommend a platform, I recommend being highly cautious
>> about who generates and who edits material for a program which teaches
>> disaster preparedness.  Legal disclaimers will not be able to protect the
>> author(s) if the information is blatantly incorrect, or even slightly
>> misinterpreted.
>>
>> Even the experts cannot always agree about what is best and the best way
>> to present it.  For a United States based example, compare www.ready.gov&
>> www.reallyready.org.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Maria Droujkova <droujkova at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> I would not use these programs. I would actually use Prezi.
>> The simple answer to "Why" is the professional look of end product.
>> Scratch and Etoys apps look childish (on purpose!!!) - like their names
>> imply, the idea is to mess and play with things.   I just would not take
>> disaster preparedness info seriously if it were presented in such way.
>>
>> However, if you are thinking specifically about GAMES about disasters
>> (and humor), I would go with Scratch. Mostly because of the ease of upload
>> and remix, and large user base.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Maria Droujkova
>> 919-388-1721
>>
>> Make math your own, to make your own math
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Folks…
>>
>>
>> If you were going to build an educational piece about disaster
>> preparedness for possible *cross platform* worldwide distribution would
>> you prefer to do it in Scratch or Etoys and why?
>>
>>
>> The end product would need to be able to have animation, sound, possible
>> narration, interaction and all that sort of thing. The text and sound in
>> the end product would be translated into many target languages. The project
>> might be done by youth with little or no prior programming experience.
>>
>>
>> I am tending toward Scratch because it is easier to get started and I
>> really like the ease and quality of animation and the sound capabilities.
>>
>>
>> What do you all think?  And please, no simple "+1"s. I am very interested
>> in the "whys".
>>
>>
>> Caryl
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>
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