[IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?

[Dr. Gerald Ardito]

Alan,

Thanks for this.
I am just beginning to work with our 5th grade students and teachers and
will put this into action.

One question for you, if I may. Can you tell me about the first Etoys lesson
you mentioned (with 35 things in 30 minutes)?

Thanks again.
Gerald

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Gerald,
>
> Yes, I think the "experts" approach is a good one also -- we first saw it
> used by Betty Edwards (the drawing teacher) and it works very well if the
> ratio is about 1 expert to 6 or 7 learners or better.
>
> And we have tried this with Etoys (mostly on adult teachers).
>
> However, of all the ways we've tried, doing one on ones, and then using the
> new learners as one on one teachers for the next group (so you are doubling
> each time) works the best (and is also the most efficient with regard to how
> much time it takes to successfully do the first Etoys exercise -- in which
> the learners do and learn about 35 things in about 30 minutes).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito <gerald.ardito at gmail.com>
> *To:* Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Caroline Meeks <caroline at solutiongrove.com>; Cherry Withers <
> cwithers at ekindling.org>; danielgastelu at yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara <
> paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>; Steve Thomas <stevesargon at gmail.com>; iaep <
> iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 4:31:13 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
>
> Alan,
>
> First, I just want to clarify that I meant "challenged" in a positive way.
> The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through
> scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a
> pedagogical approach. We saw this, too.
>
> Our learning situation involved 4-6 student "experts" with whom I spent
> time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project.
> Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these "experts" were
> free to move around the room helping other students.
>
> We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive
> classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my
> dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent
> more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills
> enough.
>
> Thanks.
> Gerald
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These
>> were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers
>> (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any "challenged" 5th
>> graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes.
>> The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use "a
>> spreading wave" of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both
>> children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass.
>>
>> So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot
>> of "challenged" students result from such artifacts).
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito <gerald.ardito at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Caroline Meeks <caroline at solutiongrove.com>
>> *Cc:* Cherry Withers <cwithers at ekindling.org>; danielgastelu at yahoo.com.ar;
>> Tim McNamara <paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>; Steve Thomas <
>> stevesargon at gmail.com>; iaep <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>> *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
>>
>> Caroline,
>>
>> You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis.
>>
>> The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that
>> hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the
>> 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also
>> do plenty of "painting" of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the
>> bricks seems to match their thinking process.
>>
>> I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch
>> and am looking forward to that.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Gerald
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks <
>> caroline at solutiongrove.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and
>>> eToys to 5th and 8th graders.
>>>
>>> Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering.
>>>
>>> I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th
>>> graders took to eToys more.
>>>
>>> Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that
>>> is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before
>>> they have to start understanding programming.
>>>
>>> On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with
>>> programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch.
>>>
>>> This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but
>>> it would be interesting to explore further.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to
>>>> join in.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas <stevesargon at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Edward,
>>>> > Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more
>>>> > "easily discoverable" and I will work on it.
>>>> > Stephen
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know
>>>> >> where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could
>>>> >> be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other
>>>> >> education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more
>>>> >> introductory modules.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover
>>>> >> these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the
>>>> >> middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point
>>>> >> is my Wiki page,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
>>>> >> The undiscoverable  is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and
>>>> >> solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find.
>>>> >> These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS
>>>> >> documentation.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind,
>>>> >> which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara <
>>>> paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> > The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex
>>>> things in
>>>> >> > all
>>>> >> > of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each
>>>> Activity
>>>> >> > can
>>>> >> > be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Tim
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers <cwithers at ekindling.org
>>>> >
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it,  but it sounded
>>>> >> >> logical
>>>> >> >> to me.
>>>> >> >> Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult
>>>> tasks.
>>>> >> >> To confirm this statement,  I add the phrase: "Visible learning,
>>>> >> >> invisible
>>>> >> >> technology".
>>>> >> >> Children would first learn TurtleArt.
>>>> >> >> When they outgrow it switch to Scratch.
>>>> >> >> When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>>> >> > IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
>>>> >> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>>>> >> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>>>> >> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>>> >> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
>>>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>>>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>>>> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>>> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Caroline Meeks
>>> Solution Grove
>>> Caroline at SolutionGrove.com
>>>
>>> 617-500-3488 - Office
>>> 505-213-3268 - Fax
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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