[IAEP] XO Special interest group at Sugar Labs

DancesWithCars danceswithcars at gmail.com
Sat Sep 26 03:53:58 EDT 2009

more inline

and reviewing, highlighting/ commenting on the original
posting/ thread below that...

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Yioryos Asprobounitis
<mavrothal at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- On Thu, 9/24/09, DancesWithCars <danceswithcars at gmail.com> wrote:
>> From: DancesWithCars <danceswithcars at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: XO Special interest group at Sugar Labs
>> To: "Yioryos Asprobounitis" <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com, "David Farning" <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>, "iaep" <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 6:45 AM
>> I'm not sure about the hardware
>> issues
>> mentioned below, as new to some of these lists,
>> but if there is an installed base of XO-1 computers
>> with special hardware like the touchpad
>> with 2 extra areas that were never implemented,
>> why not develop applications for those,
>> even if the XO-1.5 and XO-2 plans don't
>> include them?
>> What are you going to tell the kids
>> with XO-1s when the XO-1.5 come out?
>> What is the consolation prize?
>> Knowing more about it, and
>> being further up the learning curve?

Note: Nothing mentioned on new hardware
and have/ vs. have nots on that?...

>> Also, the battery issues will get worse,
>> as the hardware gets older, so testing
>> and determining when need new battery,
>> as a computer without power isn't much
>> fun.

Batteries, as my first laptop has problems
years later with the battery (flashing red),
and replacements not currently/ easily available,
and a 5 yo Nikon CoolPix 4300 camera that the
2 Gig Compact Flash memory card is not available
much anymore,  as it's too small size to be considered,
(Salesman: 4 Gig+ is better, must be able to use that,
Me: No, not really.
Salesman: Faster speed better?
Me: No, not supported, so why pay for that?
Salesman/Manager: Not comparable,
 so not a 1-to-1  swap replacement for cost/ raincheck)
 and stores want to force me
to get a new camera instead of the supplies
I went in for, i.e. snotty sales/ register people
making others wait in line [i.e. look how difficult
he is being making all the others in line wait,
when small local brand memory stuff is only
available at the counter...], and all...

But I rant on MicroCenter in the Washington DC
area...  But it is an industry thing even here
in supposedly 1st world where everyone
is supposedly rich and should be donors
only, not receipients (OLPC USA???)
(but by comparison to  $50 USD/ year
per capita annual income,
though consider cost of living here...)

>> Repairing hardware gets more crucial
>> as machines get older.

Try finding i386 PC-100 memory,
or getting delivery on an XO touchpad
without it being so late as to be useless,
 being shorted on the order
from XOExplosion.com and non responsive
to a certified letter and phone doesn't work,
and email rarely...

>> Being more inventive with what you have
>> instead of this is the shiny new machine,
>> so going deeper into the system,
>> maybe programming instead of just
>> using.  Or more time with the learning
>> content.
>> Even as a ebook reader, getting new
>> content, creating new content,
>> maybe more translating content?
>> I still think flossmanuals.net
>> needs indexing and other layout stuff,
>> under the hood, or however parallel,
>> LyX makes some assumptions,
>> and does some of that but not
>> the wiki and social stuff up top,
>> so [La]TeX classes and styles might be
>> a good contribution, finding
>> objavi and booki source code,
>> etc...
> These are all very valid points. However, is not clear to me if you imply that they should be prioritized over the updating of the os/sugar or not.

Getting something on a list of features/ requirements
is probably the first step, then prioritizing, when we can
a;; see what the whole list looks like, available
resources (time, skill, man/woman/kid power, etc), ...

> I hope not since some of these may even benefit from an updated OS (touchpad, battery, other hardware related patches) as opposed to an unsupported one (Fedora 9).

Fedora seems to be on a 6 month development
cycle.  The OLPC/ SugarLabs split plus OLPC
SW dev team cutbacks seems to have effected
the published timeline(s) greatly...

So maybe determining the timeline would be a
 good first step.   Suggesting an F-Odd release
cycle?  Backporting anything critical, security
wise, and keeping repos online for the full
year+ XO/Sugar cycle, if not longer?

Usenet/ UUNet store and forward seems like an
interesting technology to push updates
into remote areas.

Can an XO/Sugar machine actually share files?
Activity / kernel/ rpm / repo saved on local machine /
SD/ USB and easily update the others when meshing/
if approved by local neighbor(s)
 vs w/o whole mesh entire reflash image??
i.e. incrementals instead of full refresh?

Sugar has a large installed base on XO/
Fedora, and seems like it's not a Special Interest
(i.e. subgroup) but the largest part so far,
and relegating it to junior status, is demeaning.

Development (most people here are probably
developers? no?) is important, but serving
the customer base instead of orphaning
them is also important...

> On the other hand being a voluntary process is hard to tell to people "you do this instead of that". You can certainly try to convince them, and I think you do a good job on that :-)
I can voice my opinion, but others are free to disagree...

Usually what we call a democracy, but I'm not sure
if you prefer a meritocracy (those who do the work
get to determine how others live)??

>> The requirements for testing a new build
>> is some extra XO-n hardware for testing,
>> and a high speed connection, if giving
>> new .isos builds out to the world,
>> or access to some place that would,
>> plus the time and knowledge to
>> make the changes, find bugs,
>> report them, etc.
> Again I'm not sure what this means. That is trivial? That a "beta" quality OS should be delivered to the students/deployments and let them debug it? Other?
Less impossible (topic was trivial), if supported.
I didn't say a beta quality, but you (original poster)
seem to want us to just be testers, so
if you have to have an RT account,
join a Gang (interpreted differently here when
6 surround me at MetroRail and want my stuff,
i.e bike/ computer, etc), get flooded
with list emails just to report a bug/ process issue
(i.e. put a form on the Sugar interface and have it
store and forward when connected?
bottom up instead of top down,
creating feedback all the way down from kids/ users)
then the users of the software get to report
stuff, and it reported multiply, then filter it out/
condense symptoms/ merge into better reports,
and prioritize by User counts?...

Filters can sort out if the poster is a minor,
redact certain stuff, etc.  i.e. 30 kids reported
a problem with Z.  Must be worth looking into.
Local school admins not figuring it out, maybe
they need some support on that?

>> And if 'It's An Eduction Project"
>> are we teaching self reliance
>> and how to do builds, make your
>> own constructionist style or
>> whatever teaching paradigm fits
>> the locals?  Or forcing dependence
>> upon others?
> Again trying to read between the lines...

Not always good to do when I'm pissed
about ClassActs and writing in response
to that... ;-/

Or writing in the middle of the night
with little sleep, but this thread is getting

> I'm sure that "locals" have their hands full trying to make the best of the available hardware/software, adapt it to their needs and build their own apps when needed.

So you don't think 'locals' are capable human beings??

That's the attitude I've gotten from OLPC...
Not as much from a Red Hat visit.

With their//our own customs and traditions
that seem to work for things We/they already encounter,
until a little XO is introduced/ [or forced, in some cases,
as some teachers/ admins  might not want it...]

Some organizations can't modify a kernel locally?
Create operating systems/ applications?
Translate English based dominance
to local languages?

A Finland grad student started Linux,
not the US.  And not M$.  But FSF and GNU
and many others added to it...

Even in the USA, MIT arrogance is pissing me off.
We 'locals' can host a book sprint, and be treated
like shit, not heard, not worthy of a visit from NN,
WB, etc as Congress / funding is the Only priority,
but not good enough to write/ be published (in ClassActs),
 must less vote on things that effect us

> I would also guess that if the current Fedora 9-based OS is a blocker to paramount needs they may try to update it themselves.

See the talk on the wiki.laptop.org F11forXO1 about some
git commands and the 'we are not going to do it,
but it's easy' type of tone, and then see if you
can do it from what was provided...

> However, providing a better option as the F11/Sugar0.84+ is, in no way is in contrast with the "educational project".

> For one is _not_ a "computer education" project.

Isn't anything done on a computer,
a computer education project? ;-/

But most people don't look under
the hood of their cars (those that own cars...)

> So "upgrade your OS", is by no means a priority.

Install or develop?
Remix the kernel modules?

> Is welcome, but in no way required.

> Expecting a 9-12 years old on the other hand to come up with the solutions is conceivable but nothing to depend on, either.

You might be surprised what 9-12 yos can do,
but there are also high schools, colleges,
administrators, teachers and community members
and over the lifecycle of the project,
kids starting out on XO's
might want to graduate to hacking kernels,
and going upstream, so to speak,
with support instead of fighting
the attitude that they are not good enough
to do that...

> Finally the fact that if you give someone a fishing pole will eat fish all his/her life, does not preclude that you can not give them a fishing boat to get bigger fish, nor it implies they should built one.

Giving someone *the first* fishing pole (G1G1 Donor)
does not mean that that once introduced to fishing,
they cannot try making a fishing pole locally once seen...

Or better yet, adapt the pole to the type of waters
locally.  Fishing off a dock / pier is one thing, in a stream,
another, and in the ocean, requires something else

Not to mentioned bait...
[humorous analogy to herding cats somewhere in here]

> They may as well build a boat by themselves but the goal here is to get as much and as good fish as possible given the needs.

Since we are talking fishing, is that for sport or to

Here in the USA, many people are recreational

And some poor/ homeless in the city,
that is the only way they get food/
fresh fish, but the rivers are polluted, though better
after the 1970's, but I'd guess here in Washington,DC
somewhat still polluted and mercury (+whatever) poisoned.

> Finally self reliance is an important factor.

Respect is important too.

> However like everything else in teaching it must be build
gradually, in the right order and by experience. Assigning tasks that
will be never completed guaranties that you will build self
depreciation rather than self reliance.

> And as you said "is an educational project".
> If I read your comments wrong, my apologies.
Well, you actually read them :-)
and stated what you heard,
so I'm responding, even if late,
and still pissed about ClassActs/
FlossManuals.net Index/ LyX/ LaTeX stuff.

Tux.org people were _involved_ in the
ClassActs, but not even listed on the
poster, t-shirt, invited to meet NN,
WB, etc...

And if Sugar is to be truely cross platform,
then it might want people who are involved
in other distros (Ubuntu, YellowDog, etc )/
hardware (Apple Mac, Sun?, etc)
plus the whole user community instead of
just developers (see criteria for SL membership)...

And most old hardware don't boot from USB
(64 bit laptop w battery issue mentioned above),
and really old stuff doesn't boot from CDR (Beige G3,
and P1 class machines, i.e. stuff people give away/
trash locally...), much less support virtualization
(even 1st Gen 64 bit Averatec and this 64 bit desktop
doesn't have the real cpu chip support)...

>> My $.02 USD - costs of ownership/
>> && giving back.
>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Yioryos Asprobounitis
>> <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Now, that's an excellent idea!
>> > However, the crucial thing before any extensive
>> building/testing starts is to address some major issues that
>> would stop most people from using/testing F11/Sugar.84+.
>> Namely the
Xorg geode video driver,
the camera
and the battery monitor.

>> These will primarily need developers.
>> > Having these components in place then a daily build
>> bug fixing/reporting system would be more valuable since
>> more people may be willing to give it a try, identifying the
>> "minor" issues that may eventually allow a
>> deployment-quality release.
>> > If this is going to be an OLPC, Fedora or SL project,
>> I think is irrelevant. XO-1 is an EOL machine that runs an
>> OS/UI developed by "some other" organization. Is literally
>> orphan (besides these limited efforts) so any "adopter"
>> should be welcome. Whoever sets it up should be good to go.
>> With almost a million users is the biggest educational
>> linux/sugar implementation and worths every attention.
>> >
>> > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, David Farning <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: David Farning <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: XO Special interest group at Sugar
>> Labs
>> >> To: fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com
>> >> Cc: "iaep" <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>> >> Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:36 PM
>> >> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 3:41 PM,
>> >> Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Hi David,
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 7:48 PM, David
>> Farning <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> For the past several months the
>> OLPC/Sugar Labs
>> >> ecosystem has been
>> >> >> getting requests to provide releases of
>> more
>> >> recent versions of Sugar
>> >> >> on the XO.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The leading effort in this direction
>> seems to be
>> >> the F11-XO1 project.
>> >> >> I would like to like to invite F11-XO1 to
>> become
>> >> part of the XO SIG.
>> >> >> I have been trying to articulate the
>> project goals
>> >> and gather momentum
>> >> >> across several groups.
>> >> >> 1.  OLPC as a downstream.

as posted by SL

>> >> >> 2. Sugar Labs as a focus point.

as posted by SL

>> >> >> 3. Various ecosystem leaders to do pilots
>> with
>> >> current versions of Sugar on XOs.

near as I can tell OLPC doesn't do Pilots,
they expect results only, at least in the
contributor program.

>> >> >> 4. Various testers to provide user level
>> testing.

User level testing on the kernel???
Or Sugar?
Or Activities?
Or the whole Gestalt?

>> >> >>
>> >> >> The goal of this groups is not to
>> _fragment_ the
>> >> existing efforts.
>> >> >> The goal is bring the various efforts
>> together to
>> >> form a critical mass
>> >> >> to help pull this propel forward.
>> >> >
>> >> > As far as I'm aware there is no F11-XO1
>> project, I'm
>> >> aware of a couple
>> >> > of different projects to get the latest Sugar
>> releases
>> >> on the XO.
>> >> > - The SoaS on XO which is being run my Martin
>> Dengler
>> >> in conjunction
>> >> > with SoaS and SL (that's where its all
>> hosted).
>> >> > - The OLPC project to get Fedora 11 on both
>> the XO-1.5
>> >> and XO-1 which
>> >> > is being handled by Steven M. Parrish (and
>> Daniel
>> >> Drake / Chris Ball)
>> >>
>> >> This confusion is part of what I am hoping to
>> clear up by
>> >> create a
>> >> single clearly defined project.
>> >>
>> >> I have heard back from many of the people working
>> on the
>> >> various
>> >> projects. the work flow seems to be:
>> >> 1. Sugar development team creates platform.
>> >> 2. Fedora packagers package Sugar... and
>> everything else
>> >> required to
>> >> make a disto.
>> >> 3a. SoaS takes packages and turns them into a Soas
>> image.
>> >> 3b. Soas is getting pretty well test via test days
>> and
>> >> deployments
>> >> such as the GPA.
>> >> 4a. Steven take the Fedora packages adds the XO
>> specific
>> >> bit and turns
>> >> them into xo builds.
>> >> 4b. limited testing for xo builds.
>> >>
>> >> Because of time restrictions, the F11 on XO effort
>> seems to
>> >> be
>> >> reactive.  They take the output from cjb and the
>> >> fedora packages and
>> >> create builds.  I believe that the XO SIG could
>> help
>> >> generate interest
>> >> and attract more developers and testers to the
>> project.
>> >>
>> >> > Both projects are cross pollinated and use
>> components
>> >> of work done by
>> >> > both as well as myself and other Fedora
>> upstream
>> >> people. I don't
>> >> > believe there's much difference between them
>> as where
>> >> possible I
>> >> > believe most stuff is pushed upsteam. There
>> is no
>> >> current Fedora based
>> >> > project working on this directly due to the
>> down
>> >> stream projects.
>> >> >
>> >> > I have my own build that I use but that
>> isn't
>> >> generally published and
>> >> > is mostly to test core fedora for dependency
>> bloat and
>> >> breakages.
>> >>
>> >> Would it be useful if we started by combining your
>> work and
>> >> Stevens
>> >> into an automatic build system.  This could help
>> >> identify breakages.
>> >> Then we could create a release cycle of alpha and
>> beta and
>> >> final
>> >> releases.
>> >>
>> >> By creating the daily builds and widely
>> broadcasting the
>> >> various
>> >> releases, we can engage a larger community of
>> testers.
>> >>
>> >> david
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Fedora-olpc-list mailing list
>> >> Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com
>> >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list
>> > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com
>> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list
>> >
>> --
>> DancesWithCars
>> leave the wolves behind ;-)

leave the wolves behind ;-)

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