[Sugar-devel] Abandoned or orphaned activities

Walter Bender walter.bender at gmail.com
Tue Jan 22 21:54:08 EST 2019


On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 9:13 PM James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 01:29:56PM -0500, Devin Ulibarri wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > This was my experience:
> >
> >   • I came into SugarLabs community at the time that this migration was
> >     beginning to happen.
> >   • I started a GH account because that is where I was told the software
> was
> >     being maintained.
> >   • I have continued to "go with the flow" and work via GH although I
> have come
> >     to understand more of the history and context of this matter.
> >
> > These are my thoughts and opinions:
> >
> >   • I remember an argument that one reason to move to GH is "that is
> where all
> >     the developers are", but since our migration I have seen so many kids
> >     (usually GCI) set up new accounts with GH in order to contribute to
> SL (and
> >     to participate in GCI). This makes me think that many people are
> willing to
> >     join our development regardless of whatever tools/services we use,
> and
> >     whatever tool/services we use, if they are not yet setup with them,
> they
> >     are willing to get setup in order to join development.
> >   • Another argument seems to boil down to "we will be more productive
> using GH
> >     because we need not worry about the hassle of maintaining our own
> code
> >     hosting service". Is there evidence that we are more productive now
> than
> >     before? Not having the opportunity to learn/use the other systems, I
> would
> >     only be guessing.
>
> Not much evidence, it's about the same.  Like any tooling, you get
> good at it with time.  More productive now through the pull request
> and issue integration, but less productive through loss of situational
> awareness; changes are hidden in GitHub rather than being posted to
> sugar-devel@, and new developers fixate on their favourite
> repositories.
>
> >   • In theory, SL running its own version control, seems to me like it
> would be
> >     a) more fun for someone interested in this kind of work, b) a
> learning
> >     opportunity, and c) gives maximum freedom/flexibility to the ways in
> which
> >     we would like to do development.
>
> git.sugarlabs.org hasn't needed any significant maintenance, and is
> probably insecure now because of vulnerabilities that haven't been
> patched.
>
> bugs.sugarlabs.org has needed updates, but they have generally worked
> well.
>

The spam issue made it almost unusable.

>
> >   • I would rather be using software that is licensed under a FLOSS
> license
> >     than a proprietary license. gnu.org came up with some criteria to
> evaluate
> >     "code hosting services" such as GH: [1]https://www.gnu.org/software/
> >     repo-criteria.html (which, btw, gets an "F", the lowest grade) The
> whole
> >     reason I am in this in the first place is because I believe the
> free/libre
> >     model of software to be the best for society and education.
>
> Yes, I agree.  Setting up an instance of GitLab could be done, but we
> would need someone willing to do that and maintain it.  Or we could
> use GitLab directly as other projects have done.
>

What does that accomplish at this point? (That being said, I use GitLab for
other projects and it works just fine.)

>
> >
> > Devin
> >
> > On Tue, 2019-01-22 at 07:15 +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
> >
> >     Walter,
> >
> >     I will try. I am moving on Feb 3 to Palawan. I'll try to get to it
> then. My
> >     principal concern re GSOC is to define projects with manageable
> scope -
> >     many of the past projects ended undelivered.
> >
> >     Tony
> >
> >     On 1/21/19 3:10 PM, Walter Bender wrote:
> >
> >         On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 3:44 AM James Cameron <[2]
> quozl at laptop.org>
> >         wrote:
> >
> >             Fascinating, I never thought the move to GitHub was ever
> going to
> >             achieve all that.  It was to enable a shutdown of the
> unmaintained
> >             gitorious instance at [3]git.sugarlabs.org.  Which still
> hasn't
> >             happened
> >             because it is still useful, in turn because this community
> hasn't
> >             the
> >             time to do the necessary leg work to finish the move to
> GitHub.
> >
> >         I would be curious what is still on Gitorious that hasn't been
> >         migrated.
> >
> >         FWIW, my principle motivations for the move were (1) as James
> points
> >         out -- on less piece of infrastructure for us to maintain; and
> (2)
> >         GitHub for better or worse is much more familiar to and likely
> to be
> >         discovered by potential developers. I think GH has been a decent
> tool
> >         which requires minimal effort on our part. Not sure that the
> latter
> >         really amounts to too much.
> >
> >         Re Tony's point about the ownership model, I don't see that
> anything we
> >         are doing suggests we don't want to continue to support
> individual
> >         contributions. I interpreted James's list not as a matter of
> ownership
> >         but rather a surfacing of what is actually happening re
> maintenance. In
> >         some sense, what is being articulated is the equivalent of the
> Fructose
> >         vs Honey nomenclature of the past where the core developers are
> saying:
> >         "These activities will be maintained. Cannot speak for everything
> >         else."
> >
> >         That said, I think Tony makes a great point re thinking about the
> >         pedagogical implications of our choices, which have had little
> if any
> >         input from the learning side of the house. Would be great to get
> more
> >         input to help us in regard to what is most valuable to our users
> >         (whether they know it or not). [4]@Tony Anderson would be great
> if you
> >         could rework you thoughts about Python into a GSoC idea.
> >
> >         regards.
> >
> >         -walter
> >
> >
> >             In short, it has nothing to do with the tools, and
> everything to do
> >             with contributors.
> >
> >             I'll continue to focus on the activities I've got on my
> list.  That
> >             doesn't mean I won't help with the other activities, but I
> won't
> >             necessarily spend as much time with the others.
> >
> >             On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:12:01AM +0200, Tony Anderson
> wrote:
> >             > While it is marvelous to see some actual attention to the
> Sugar
> >             activities,
> >             > this approach is the direct opposite of the logic behind
> the move
> >             of the
> >             > activities to gitHub. This is a return to the G1G1 model
> in which
> >             individuals
> >             > develop, contribute and own activities. There can be no
> abandoned
> >             or orphaned
> >             > activities in a community support model.
> >             >
> >             > It was recognized by Walter and others that there were two
> >             factors which made
> >             > that ownership model unworkable. First, changes in Sugar
> software
> >             support such
> >             > as the move to GTK3 made common changes to all activities
> >             necessary and,
> >             > second, that many of the original contributors are no
> longer
> >             involved with
> >             > Sugar.
> >             >
> >             > GitHub was touted as the way in which Sugar Labs as a
> community
> >             would support
> >             > Sugar and its library of activities. However, in practice
> support
> >             for
> >             > activities has become increasingly limited to a small
> number of
> >             ones selected
> >             > for inclusion in the 13.2 series of builds.
> >             >
> >             > The Sugar activities library is made available to our
> users via
> >             ASLO.
> >             > Unfortunately, there are activities with new versions in
> gitHub
> >             which have not
> >             > been released to ASLO and thus are unknown to our users.
> There is
> >             even
> >             > confusion over which 'github'. It has to be kept clear that
> >             developers can use
> >             > any method they chose. What is controlled is the
> repository on
> >             gitHub. Any
> >             > changes outside of the Sugar Labs github are invisible
> until they
> >             are submitted
> >             > as a new version.
> >             >
> >             > Educational intent
> >             >
> >             > What I would like to see is a return to the founding
> philosophy
> >             of Sugar.
> >             > Everyone is welcome to contribute. When you get 10 lines
> of code
> >             working,
> >             > submit your activity. Sugar is designed to provide all the
> >             software tools
> >             > needed to develop activities in Sugar - no
> cross-development,
> >             containers, or
> >             > virtual environments. Instead of requesting new
> contributors to
> >             demonstrate
> >             > their technical proficiency by putting their name on the
> XO icon
> >             in the Home
> >             > View, identify some real examples of changes that would
> improve
> >             Sugar. There
> >             > are plenty available:
> >             >
> >             > Fix the icons on 'my settings' so they are visible instead
> of
> >             switching to
> >             > gnome by clicking on the big toe.
> >             > When you take a screenshot and switch to the Journal to
> give it a
> >             title, you
> >             > must use the Frame to return, not the Activity key.
> >             > The kids love the ability to customize their laptop with a
> >             background picture.
> >             > Unfortunately this often makes the icons in the Home View
> >             invisible.
> >             > Add Jupyter Notebook as a built-in capability of Sugar
> (possibly
> >             as a service
> >             > of Browse).
> >             > Help solve problems with a long list of activities (such
> as the
> >             lack of sound
> >             > in Block Party).
> >             > Find a way for Browse to support the css FlexBox.
> >             >
> >             > Stop using Pippy as a ceiling to our users learning to
> program in
> >             Python. They
> >             > can work up to 'Make your own Sugar Activities'.  Start
> with the
> >             Hello World
> >             > activity. Explain GTK and its benefits. PyDebug provides
> recipes
> >             for many
> >             > common coding situations. Stop hiding the Terminal and Log
> >             activities - try to
> >             > encourage them to become favorites. Soon we could see a new
> >             generation of
> >             > user-programmers as we did in Uruguay.
> >             >
> >             > Along this theme, we should embrace the RPI and its
> compatriots
> >             as a way to
> >             > make embedded computing tangible. It would not be
> difficult to
> >             connect such a
> >             > device via the Ad Hoc network so that it could be used to
> >             transfer a program
> >             > written on an XO to the device and execute it with the user
> >             seeing the results
> >             > on LEDs (e.g. Sense Hat).
> >             >
> >             > Tony
> >             >
> >             > On 1/20/19 3:48 PM, Walter Bender wrote:
> >             >
> >             >     I noticed Dimensions fell off the list. I will take
> that one
> >             on as I think
> >             >     it is of real value.
> >             >
> >             >     -walter
> >             >
> >             >     On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 8:44 AM James Cameron <[1][5]
> >             quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> >             >
> >             >         Thanks.  So the list looks like;
> >             >
> >             >         # Walter Bender
> >             >
> >             >         * Music Blocks,
> >             >         * Turtle Blocks JS,
> >             >
> >             >         # Rahul Bothra
> >             >
> >             >         * CowBulls,
> >             >         * Flappy,
> >             >         * Cedit,
> >             >         * Polari,
> >             >
> >             >         # James Cameron
> >             >
> >             >         * Abacus,
> >             >         * Browse (master),
> >             >         * Browse (fedora 18 - webkit - v157.x),
> >             >         * Calculator,
> >             >         * Chart,
> >             >         * Chat,
> >             >         * Clock,
> >             >         * Develop,
> >             >         * Distance,
> >             >         * Finance,
> >             >         * Find Words,
> >             >         * Fototoon,
> >             >         * Fraction Bounce,
> >             >         * Gears,
> >             >         * GetBooks,
> >             >         * Help,
> >             >         * ImageViewer,
> >             >         * Implode,
> >             >         * Jukebox,
> >             >         * Labyrinth,
> >             >         * Letters,
> >             >         * Log,
> >             >         * Maze,
> >             >         * Measure,
> >             >         * Memorize,
> >             >         * Moon (master),
> >             >         * Moon (fedora 18 - gtk2 - v17.x),
> >             >         * MusicKeyboard (master),
> >             >         * MusicKeyboard (fedora 18 - csound - v8.x),
> >             >         * Paint,
> >             >         * Physics,
> >             >         * Pippy,
> >             >         * Poll,
> >             >         * Portfolio,
> >             >         * Read (master),
> >             >         * Read (fedora 18 - webkit - v118.x),
> >             >         * Record (master),
> >             >         * Record (fedora 18 - gstreamer - v10x),
> >             >         * SimpleEnglishWikipedia,
> >             >         * Speak,
> >             >         * StopWatch,
> >             >         * Story,
> >             >         * Terminal,
> >             >         * TurtleBlocks,
> >             >         * Words,
> >             >         * Write,
> >             >
> >             >         On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 09:04:50AM -0500, Walter
> Bender
> >             wrote:
> >             >         > I am actively maintaining Music Blocks and Turtle
> >             Blocks JS.
> >             >         > I just haven't had the bandwidth to do much
> beyond that
> >             of late. That
> >             >         said, I
> >             >         > am happy to kibbutz on any of the activities
> which I
> >             used to
> >             >         maintain.
> >             >         >
> >             >         > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:11 AM Rahul Bothra
> <[1][2]
> >             >         [6]rrbothra at gmail.com> wrote:
> >             >         >
> >             >         >     *
> >             >         >     I am maintaining CowBulls and Flappy.
> >             >         >
> >             >         >     I can take up cedit and Polari
> >             >         >
> >             >         >     On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:53 PM James
> Cameron <[2]
> >             [3]
> >             >         [7]quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> >             >         >
> >             >         >         Once we had a list of abandoned
> activities,
> >             where the
> >             >         maintainer is
> >             >         >         missing in action, not doing testing or
> >             releasing.
> >             >         >
> >             >         >         Now, I propose the inverse; a list of
> >             activities with a
> >             >         maintainer
> >             >         >         testing and releasing.  It will be
> easier to
> >             maintain that
> >             >         list.
> >             >         >
> >             >         >         For myself, each of the Fructose
> activities,
> >             each of the
> >             >         activities we
> >             >         >         ship on OLPC OS.  I know Walter is
> looking
> >             after Music
> >             >         Blocks.  Lionel
> >             >         >         is looking after Sugarizer.  Are there
> any
> >             other developers
> >             >         who are
> >             >         >         maintainers?
> >             >         >
> >             >         >         --
> >             >         >         James Cameron
> >             >         >         [3][4][8]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> >             >         >
>  _______________________________________________
> >             >         >         Sugar-devel mailing list
> >             >         >         [4][5][9]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             >         >         [5][6][10]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> >             sugar-devel
> >             >         >
> >             >         >
>  _______________________________________________
> >             >         >     Sugar-devel mailing list
> >             >         >     [6][7][11]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             >         >     [7][8][12]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> >             sugar-devel
> >             >         >
> >             >         > --
> >             >         > Walter Bender
> >             >         > Sugar Labs
> >             >         > [8][9][13]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> >             >         > [9]
> >             >         >
> >             >         > References:
> >             >         >
> >             >         > [1] mailto:[10][14]rrbothra at gmail.com
> >             >         > [2] mailto:[11][15]quozl at laptop.org
> >             >         > [3] [12][16]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> >             >         > [4] mailto:[13][17]
> Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             >         > [5] [14][18]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> >             sugar-devel
> >             >         > [6] mailto:[15][19]
> Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             >         > [7] [16][20]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> >             sugar-devel
> >             >         > [8] [17][21]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> >             >         > [9] [18][22]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> >             >
> >             >         --
> >             >         James Cameron
> >             >         [19][23]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> >             >         _______________________________________________
> >             >         Sugar-devel mailing list
> >             >         [20][24]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             >         [21][25]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >             >
> >             >     --
> >             >     Walter Bender
> >             >     Sugar Labs
> >             >     [22][26]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> >             >
> >             >
> >             >     _______________________________________________
> >             >     Sugar-devel mailing list
> >             >     [23][27]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             >     [24][28]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >             >
> >             > References:
> >             >
> >             > [1] mailto:[29]quozl at laptop.org
> >             > [2] mailto:[30]rrbothra at gmail.com
> >             > [3] mailto:[31]quozl at laptop.org
> >             > [4] [32]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> >             > [5] mailto:[33]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             > [6] [34]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >             > [7] mailto:[35]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             > [8] [36]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >             > [9] [37]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> >             > [10] mailto:[38]rrbothra at gmail.com
> >             > [11] mailto:[39]quozl at laptop.org
> >             > [12] [40]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> >             > [13] mailto:[41]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             > [14] [42]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >             > [15] mailto:[43]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             > [16] [44]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >             > [17] [45]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> >             > [18] [46]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> >             > [19] [47]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> >             > [20] mailto:[48]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             > [21] [49]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >             > [22] [50]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> >             > [23] mailto:[51]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             > [24] [52]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> >             > _______________________________________________
> >             > Sugar-devel mailing list
> >             > [53]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             > [54]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> >             --
> >             James Cameron
> >             [55]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> >             _______________________________________________
> >             Sugar-devel mailing list
> >             [56]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >             [57]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> >         --
> >         Walter Bender
> >         Sugar Labs
> >         [58]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> >
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         Sugar-devel mailing list
> >         [59]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >         [60]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     Sugar-devel mailing list
> >     [61]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >     [62]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> > References:
> >
> > [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html
> > [2] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [3] http://git.sugarlabs.org/
> > [4] mailto:tony_anderson at usa.net
> > [5] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [6] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [7] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [8] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [9] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [10] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [11] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [12] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [13] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [14] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [15] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [16] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [17] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [18] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [19] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [20] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [21] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [22] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [23] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [24] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [25] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [26] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [27] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [28] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [29] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [30] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [31] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [32] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [33] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [34] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [35] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [36] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [37] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [38] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [39] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [40] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [41] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [42] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [43] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [44] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [45] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [46] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [47] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [48] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [49] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [50] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [51] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [52] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [53] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [54] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [55] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [56] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [57] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [58] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [59] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [60] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [61] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [62] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>


-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
<http://www.sugarlabs.org>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/attachments/20190122/59482c76/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the Sugar-devel mailing list