[somos-azucar] [IAEP] Teaching with computers / Enseniando con Computadoras

[Gonzalo Odiard]

The pesto analogy is good, but Alan have a point too.
I think Sugar is a project _and_ a product.
And everybody who has worked in the software industry know
how different is the work needed to have a prototype,
a almost working product, and the rule of 80/20 is a popular reference.
To most of ours users, Sugar is a product, and we need give them
the best product we can.
Also, I agree with the 'window of opportunity' reference. I am sure,
is a question of time, until one or two big monsters in the industry
will see education and kids like a lucrative market, and will create
a Sugar like product. If we want be relevant, we need do our best effort,
now.

Gonzalo

2011/11/20 Sameer Verma <sverma en sfsu.edu>

> 2011/11/19 Alan Kay <alan.nemo en yahoo.com>:
> > Hi David
> > I think you make a valid point about open source software. The problem is
> > that the end-users in this case have not bought into this dynamic -- and,
> > given the real goals and the small windows of opportunity available, the
> > open source dynamic is not just moot here, but is a real problem.
> > I think what we all have quite a bit of difficulty with is doing
> *packaging*
> > that is up to the level needed by the end users. This is a separate skill
> > set (and set of talents).
> >
> > Just speaking for Viewpoints (but I think this applies to most of us) we
> are
> > just much better at thinking of "potentially good features" and in
> > implementing these up to some level of usability -- but *we* certainly
> fall
> > short of what I would call real packaging. I was a champion of Hypercard
> at
> > Apple and helped get it to be approved as a product ... and then was
> quite
> > sobered, even shocked, by the amount of work -- hundreds of additional
> > person-years -- that Apple put into turning something I thought was great
> > for users, into something that *was* actually great for users. And it
> wasn't
> > just the person-hours, but "the check-list" and vetting that was the key.
> > Very best wishes,
> > Alan
> >
>
> This sounds like the product vs project distinction. Is Sugar a
> perpetual project (and therefore should be marketed as such) or is it
> a product (that's where the packaging comes in, I think).
>
> I sometimes use the analogy of pesto in my classes to talk about FOSS.
> Buying basil, garlic, olive oil, pine nuts, lemon and making pesto (a
> lot of work and personal satisfaction and perhaps as cheap as the
> store-bought jar), vs buying a jar of it at the local store (cheap and
> quick, but little labor), vs going to a restaurant, paying x3 for a
> wine pairing, and enjoying it all in the ambiance (much more expensive
> than any of the above, but the purpose at hand is very different
> (perhaps a date?) and people pay without a hitch!). The last option
> has all the spit and polish of a $100 bill but none of the
> self-actualization of making pesto :-)
>
> It all depends on what we are after - making pesto or going on a date!
> What is Sugar for?
>
> cheers,
> Sameer
> --
> Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
> Professor, Information Systems
> San Francisco State University
> http://verma.sfsu.edu/
> http://olpcsf.org/
>
>
> > ________________________________
> > From: David Van Assche <dvanassche en gmail.com>
> > To: Walter Bender <walter.bender en gmail.com>
> > Cc: voluntarios y administradores OLPC para usuarios docentes
> > <olpc-sur en lists.laptop.org>; Carlos Rabassa <carnen en mac.com>;
> > argentina en lists.laptop.org; olpc bolivia <olpc-bolivia en lists.laptop.org
> >;
> > Lista de correo del equipo Somos-Azúcar <somosazucar en lists.sugarlabs.org
> >;
> > IAEP SugarLabs <iaep en lists.sugarlabs.org>; OLPC Puno <olpcpuno en gmail.com
> >
> > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 6:20 AM
> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] Teaching with computers / Enseniando con Computadoras
> >
> > Also, what makes apple great to most people is their hardware not their
> > software, their latest OS both on touchpads and laptops is horribly
> buggy,
> > and feels more like beta software than even windows 7...
> >
> > Sugar isn't perfect, but its far far less bloated than any other option
> > available, and that makes it comfortable to code for, fun to use, and
> > hopefully easier to teach with. If only there were more marketing, more
> > money, more coders, etc,etc...
> >
> > That's the deal with all open source software though... eventually it
> seems,
> > if one holds on long enough, all those things do come... look at mozilla,
> > apache, mysql, or suse... either individuals or very big companies come
> in
> > and help out... why should it be any different with Sugar?
> >
> > David Van Assche
> >
> > 2011/11/19 Walter Bender <walter.bender en gmail.com>
> >
> > 2011/11/19 Carlos Rabassa <carnen en mac.com>:
> >> Traducción al Español sigue al texto en Inglés
> >> Warning: This link promotes Apple:
> >>
> >>
> http://www.apple.com/education/profiles/punahou/#video-punahou?sr=hotnews.rss
> >> I am sending it to Sugar devotees,  not to plant heretic ideas among
> them,
> >>  but proposing that we read it as a practice of critical thinking in an
> >> attempt to mine any good ideas from it.
> >> Just think for a moment that Apple is frequently considered the
> birthplace
> >> of the concept of using computers in education;  maybe they know
> something
> >> on the subject.
> >> May I suggest we read the text in this link replacing "any working
> >> computer"
> >> for Apple.  Many of the statements will still be true.
> >> Please notice many of the applications they use are not exclusive of
> >> Apple,
> >>  they are also the basic and easier to use applications in the Sugar XOs
> >> like Navigate, Write, Record.
> >> Let´s try to imagine ourselves for a moment in front of a classroom
> about
> >> to
> >> decide how to use our computers.
> >> Most of the text refers to the way they teach rather than to specific
> >> applications.
> >> I quote a paragraph that summarizes my point of the last few days about
> >> the
> >> urgent need to perfect Sugar:
> >>
> >> "Because the Mac and its applications are so easy to use and so closely
> >> integrated into the curriculum, teachers and students can focus on the
> >> quality and creative expression of learning, rather than on how to use
> the
> >> tools."
> >>
> >> One of the videos, linked from near the bottom of the page,  about
> Central
> >> Elementary School in Escondido, California,  called my attention among
> >> other
> >> reasons because they do not use fancy computers,  they use an IPod
> Touch.
> >> List prices for individual purchases of IPods Touch start at $199.
> >>
> >>
> >> Traducción al Español
> >> Advertencia: Este enlace es una promoción de Apple:
> >>
> >>
> http://www.apple.com/education/profiles/punahou/#video-punahou?sr=hotnews.rss
> >> No lo estoy enviando a los devotos de Sugar para sembrar ideas heréticas
> >> entre ellos,  sino proponiendo lo leamos como práctica de pensamiento
> >> crítico tratando de encontrar algunas buenas ideas en él.
> >> Pensemos por un momento que frecuentemente se considera a Apple como el
> >> lugar de nacimiento del concepto de usar computadoras en educación; tal
> >> vez
> >> ellos saben algo sobre el tema.
> >> Me permito sugerir que leamos el texto en este enlace remplazando Apple
> >> por
> >> "cualquier computadora que funcione".  Muchas de las afirmaciones
> seguirán
> >> siendo ciertas.
> >> Favor de notar que muchas de las aplicaciones que usan no son exclusivas
> >> de
> >> Apple;  también son las básicas y más fáciles de usar entre las
> >> aplicaciones
> >> de Sugar en las XO,  tales como Navegar, Escribir y Grabar.
> >> Imaginemos por un momento que estamos parados frente a una clase
> >> decidiendo
> >> cómo usar nuestras computadoras.
> >> La mayor parte del texto habla de cómo enseñan más que de aplicaciones
> >> específicas.
> >>
> >> Repito un párrafo que resume el punto que discutíamos en los últimos
> días
> >> sobre la necesidad urgente de perfeccionar Sugar:
> >>
> >> "Siendo las [computadoras] Mac y sus aplicaciones tan fáciles de usar y
> >> tan
> >> integradas a la currícula,  los maestros y los estudiantes pueden
> >> concentrar
> >> su atención en la calidad y expresión creativa de aprender, en vez de en
> >> cómo usar las herramientas."
> >>
> >> Me llamó la atención uno de los videos al final de la página,
> >>  sobre Central
> >> Elementary School en Escondido, California,  entre otras cosas,  porque
> no
> >> usan computadoras lujosas sino un IPod Touch.  El precio de lista para
> >> compra individual de los IPod Touch,  comienza en 199 dólares.
> >>
> >> Carlos Rabassa
> >> Volunteer
> >> Plan Ceibal Support Network
> >> Montevideo, Uruguay
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> >> IAEP en lists.sugarlabs.org
> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> >>
> >
> > OK Carlos, we've heard your opinion.
> >
> > (1) You think Sugar is terrible (your stated reasons -- not enough
> > professional developers and the community doesn't want feedback from
> > teachers);
> > (2) You think Apple products are great.
> >
> > You are welcome to your opinion.
> >
> > Now some facts.
> >
> > (1) We on this list are Sugar Labs, not Apple.
> > (2) There are approximately two-million teachers and children using
> Sugar.
> >
> > I hope you don't feel the need to argue with me about these facts.
> >
> > Now my opinions:
> >
> > (1) As a community, we have an opportunity to make Sugar better as a
> > learning platform.
> > (2) As a community, we can (and do) work with teachers, seeking and
> > getting feedback and should do more.
> > (3) As a community, we can (and do) work with teachers on integrating
> > Sugar into the classroom and should do more.
> > (4) As a community, we can (and do) share best practices so the good
> > ideas spread and should do more.
> >
> > These are the things I work towards and I think that the people on
> > this list generally share these goals. Since Sugar is a Free Software
> > project, everyone is free to contribute, bottom up, in any way they
> > choose. No one needs permission or management approval. This includes
> > the teachers and the children. We should be encouraging them to
> > appropriate their own destiny.
> >
> > My conclusion:
> >
> > Let's put our energy into trying to make things better. And let's
> > discuss things that are actionable.
> >
> > regards.
> >
> > -walter
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walter Bender
> > Sugar Labs
> > http://www.sugarlabs.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> > IAEP en lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> > IAEP en lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> > IAEP en lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> >
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP en lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
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