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<body><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>This was my experience:</div><div><br></div><ul><li>I came into SugarLabs community at the time that this migration was beginning to happen.</li><li>I started a GH account because that is where I was told the software was being maintained.</li><li>I have continued to "go with the flow" and work via GH although I have come to understand more of the history and context of this matter.</li></ul><div><br></div><div>These are my thoughts and opinions:</div><ul><li>I remember an argument that one reason to move to GH is "that is where all the developers are", but since our migration I have seen so many kids (usually GCI) set up new accounts with GH in order to contribute to SL (and to participate in GCI). This makes me think that many people are willing to join our development regardless of whatever tools/services we use, and whatever tool/services we use, if they are not yet setup with them, they are willing to get setup in order to join development.</li><li>Another argument seems to boil down to "we will be more productive using GH because we need not worry about the hassle of maintaining our own code hosting service". Is there evidence that we are more productive now than before? Not having the opportunity to learn/use the other systems, I would only be guessing.</li><li>In theory, SL running its own version control, seems to me like it would be a) more fun for someone interested in this kind of work, b) a learning opportunity, and c) gives maximum freedom/flexibility to the ways in which we would like to do development.</li><li>I would rather be using software that is licensed under a FLOSS license than a proprietary license. gnu.org came up with some criteria to evaluate "code hosting services" such as GH: <a href="https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html">https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html</a> (which, btw, gets an "F", the lowest grade) The whole reason I am in this in the first place is because I believe the free/libre model of software to be the best for society and education. </li></ul><div><br></div><div>Devin</div><div><br></div><div>On Tue, 2019-01-22 at 07:15 +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Walter, <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I will try. I am moving on Feb 3 to
Palawan. I'll try to get to it then. My principal concern re GSOC
is to define projects with manageable scope - many of the past
projects ended undelivered.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Tony<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/21/19 3:10 PM, Walter Bender
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CADf7C8uHuQcKdc+-GrzXyLno5gHQMs8Q2T19GBRyZ3bNY=Gxyg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 3:44
AM James Cameron <<a href="mailto:quozl@laptop.org" moz-do-not-send="true">quozl@laptop.org</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Fascinating, I never
thought the move to GitHub was ever going to<br>
achieve all that. It was to enable a shutdown of the
unmaintained<br>
gitorious instance at <a href="http://git.sugarlabs.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">git.sugarlabs.org</a>.
Which still hasn't happened<br>
because it is still useful, in turn because this community
hasn't the<br>
time to do the necessary leg work to finish the move to
GitHub.<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would be curious what is still on Gitorious that hasn't
been migrated.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>FWIW, my principle motivations for the move were (1) as
James points out -- on less piece of infrastructure for us
to maintain; and (2) GitHub for better or worse is much more
familiar to and likely to be discovered by potential
developers. I think GH has been a decent tool which requires
minimal effort on our part. Not sure that the latter really
amounts to too much.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Re Tony's point about the ownership model, I don't see
that anything we are doing suggests we don't want to
continue to support individual contributions. I interpreted
James's list not as a matter of ownership but rather a
surfacing of what is actually happening re maintenance. In
some sense, what is being articulated is the equivalent of
the Fructose vs Honey nomenclature of the past where the
core developers are saying: "These activities will be
maintained. Cannot speak for everything else."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That said, I think Tony makes a great point re thinking
about the pedagogical implications of our choices, which
have had little if any input from the learning side of the
house. Would be great to get more input to help us in regard
to what is most valuable to our users (whether they know it
or not). <a href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" tabindex="-1" moz-do-not-send="true">@Tony Anderson</a> would be great
if you could rework you thoughts about Python into a GSoC
idea.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>regards.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-walter</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote type="cite">
In short, it has nothing to do with the tools, and
everything to do<br>
with contributors.<br>
<br>
I'll continue to focus on the activities I've got on my
list. That<br>
doesn't mean I won't help with the other activities, but I
won't<br>
necessarily spend as much time with the others.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:12:01AM +0200, Tony Anderson
wrote:<br>
> While it is marvelous to see some actual attention to
the Sugar activities,<br>
> this approach is the direct opposite of the logic
behind the move of the<br>
> activities to gitHub. This is a return to the G1G1
model in which individuals<br>
> develop, contribute and own activities. There can be no
abandoned or orphaned<br>
> activities in a community support model.<br>
> <br>
> It was recognized by Walter and others that there were
two factors which made<br>
> that ownership model unworkable. First, changes in
Sugar software support such<br>
> as the move to GTK3 made common changes to all
activities necessary and,<br>
> second, that many of the original contributors are no
longer involved with<br>
> Sugar.<br>
> <br>
> GitHub was touted as the way in which Sugar Labs as a
community would support<br>
> Sugar and its library of activities. However, in
practice support for<br>
> activities has become increasingly limited to a small
number of ones selected<br>
> for inclusion in the 13.2 series of builds.<br>
> <br>
> The Sugar activities library is made available to our
users via ASLO.<br>
> Unfortunately, there are activities with new versions
in gitHub which have not<br>
> been released to ASLO and thus are unknown to our
users. There is even<br>
> confusion over which 'github'. It has to be kept clear
that developers can use<br>
> any method they chose. What is controlled is the
repository on gitHub. Any<br>
> changes outside of the Sugar Labs github are invisible
until they are submitted<br>
> as a new version.<br>
> <br>
> Educational intent<br>
> <br>
> What I would like to see is a return to the founding
philosophy of Sugar.<br>
> Everyone is welcome to contribute. When you get 10
lines of code working,<br>
> submit your activity. Sugar is designed to provide all
the software tools<br>
> needed to develop activities in Sugar - no
cross-development, containers, or<br>
> virtual environments. Instead of requesting new
contributors to demonstrate<br>
> their technical proficiency by putting their name on
the XO icon in the Home<br>
> View, identify some real examples of changes that would
improve Sugar. There<br>
> are plenty available:<br>
> <br>
> Fix the icons on 'my settings' so they are visible
instead of switching to<br>
> gnome by clicking on the big toe.<br>
> When you take a screenshot and switch to the Journal to
give it a title, you<br>
> must use the Frame to return, not the Activity key.<br>
> The kids love the ability to customize their laptop
with a background picture.<br>
> Unfortunately this often makes the icons in the Home
View invisible.<br>
> Add Jupyter Notebook as a built-in capability of Sugar
(possibly as a service<br>
> of Browse).<br>
> Help solve problems with a long list of activities
(such as the lack of sound<br>
> in Block Party).<br>
> Find a way for Browse to support the css FlexBox.<br>
> <br>
> Stop using Pippy as a ceiling to our users learning to
program in Python. They<br>
> can work up to 'Make your own Sugar Activities'. Start
with the Hello World<br>
> activity. Explain GTK and its benefits. PyDebug
provides recipes for many<br>
> common coding situations. Stop hiding the Terminal and
Log activities - try to<br>
> encourage them to become favorites. Soon we could see a
new generation of<br>
> user-programmers as we did in Uruguay.<br>
> <br>
> Along this theme, we should embrace the RPI and its
compatriots as a way to<br>
> make embedded computing tangible. It would not be
difficult to connect such a<br>
> device via the Ad Hoc network so that it could be used
to transfer a program<br>
> written on an XO to the device and execute it with the
user seeing the results<br>
> on LEDs (e.g. Sense Hat).<br>
> <br>
> Tony<br>
> <br>
> On 1/20/19 3:48 PM, Walter Bender wrote:<br>
> <br>
> I noticed Dimensions fell off the list. I will take
that one on as I think<br>
> it is of real value.<br>
> <br>
> -walter<br>
> <br>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 8:44 AM James Cameron
<[1]<a href="mailto:quozl@laptop.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">quozl@laptop.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Thanks. So the list looks like;<br>
> <br>
> # Walter Bender<br>
> <br>
> * Music Blocks,<br>
> * Turtle Blocks JS,<br>
> <br>
> # Rahul Bothra<br>
> <br>
> * CowBulls,<br>
> * Flappy,<br>
> * Cedit,<br>
> * Polari,<br>
> <br>
> # James Cameron<br>
> <br>
> * Abacus,<br>
> * Browse (master),<br>
> * Browse (fedora 18 - webkit - v157.x),<br>
> * Calculator,<br>
> * Chart,<br>
> * Chat,<br>
> * Clock,<br>
> * Develop,<br>
> * Distance,<br>
> * Finance,<br>
> * Find Words,<br>
> * Fototoon,<br>
> * Fraction Bounce,<br>
> * Gears,<br>
> * GetBooks,<br>
> * Help,<br>
> * ImageViewer,<br>
> * Implode,<br>
> * Jukebox,<br>
> * Labyrinth,<br>
> * Letters,<br>
> * Log,<br>
> * Maze,<br>
> * Measure,<br>
> * Memorize,<br>
> * Moon (master),<br>
> * Moon (fedora 18 - gtk2 - v17.x),<br>
> * MusicKeyboard (master),<br>
> * MusicKeyboard (fedora 18 - csound - v8.x),<br>
> * Paint,<br>
> * Physics,<br>
> * Pippy,<br>
> * Poll,<br>
> * Portfolio,<br>
> * Read (master),<br>
> * Read (fedora 18 - webkit - v118.x),<br>
> * Record (master),<br>
> * Record (fedora 18 - gstreamer - v10x),<br>
> * SimpleEnglishWikipedia,<br>
> * Speak,<br>
> * StopWatch,<br>
> * Story,<br>
> * Terminal,<br>
> * TurtleBlocks,<br>
> * Words,<br>
> * Write,<br>
> <br>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 09:04:50AM -0500,
Walter Bender wrote:<br>
> > I am actively maintaining Music Blocks and
Turtle Blocks JS.<br>
> > I just haven't had the bandwidth to do
much beyond that of late. That<br>
> said, I<br>
> > am happy to kibbutz on any of the
activities which I used to<br>
> maintain.<br>
> ><br>
> > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:11 AM Rahul
Bothra <[1][2]<br>
> <a href="mailto:rrbothra@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rrbothra@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > *<br>
> > I am maintaining CowBulls and Flappy.<br>
> ><br>
> > I can take up cedit and Polari<br>
> ><br>
> > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:53 PM James
Cameron <[2][3]<br>
> <a href="mailto:quozl@laptop.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">quozl@laptop.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Once we had a list of abandoned
activities, where the<br>
> maintainer is<br>
> > missing in action, not doing
testing or releasing.<br>
> ><br>
> > Now, I propose the inverse; a list
of activities with a<br>
> maintainer<br>
> > testing and releasing. It will be
easier to maintain that<br>
> list.<br>
> ><br>
> > For myself, each of the Fructose
activities, each of the<br>
> activities we<br>
> > ship on OLPC OS. I know Walter is
looking after Music<br>
> Blocks. Lionel<br>
> > is looking after Sugarizer. Are
there any other developers<br>
> who are<br>
> > maintainers?<br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > James Cameron<br>
> > [3][4]<a href="http://quozl.netrek.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://quozl.netrek.org/</a><br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > Sugar-devel mailing list<br>
> > [4][5]<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> > [5][6]<a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> ><br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > Sugar-devel mailing list<br>
> > [6][7]<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> > [7][8]<a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Walter Bender<br>
> > Sugar Labs<br>
> > [8][9]<a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> > [9]<br>
> ><br>
> > References:<br>
> ><br>
> > [1] mailto:[10]<a href="mailto:rrbothra@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rrbothra@gmail.com</a><br>
> > [2] mailto:[11]<a href="mailto:quozl@laptop.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">quozl@laptop.org</a><br>
> > [3] [12]<a href="http://quozl.netrek.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://quozl.netrek.org/</a><br>
> > [4] mailto:[13]<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> > [5] [14]<a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> > [6] mailto:[15]<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> > [7] [16]<a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> > [8] [17]<a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.sugarlabs.org/</a><br>
> > [9] [18]<a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.sugarlabs.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> James Cameron<br>
> [19]<a href="http://quozl.netrek.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://quozl.netrek.org/</a><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Sugar-devel mailing list<br>
> [20]<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> [21]<a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> Walter Bender<br>
> Sugar Labs<br>
> [22]<a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Sugar-devel mailing list<br>
> [23]<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> [24]<a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> <br>
> References:<br>
> <br>
> [1] mailto:<a href="mailto:quozl@laptop.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">quozl@laptop.org</a><br>
> [2] mailto:<a href="mailto:rrbothra@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rrbothra@gmail.com</a><br>
> [3] mailto:<a href="mailto:quozl@laptop.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">quozl@laptop.org</a><br>
> [4] <a href="http://quozl.netrek.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://quozl.netrek.org/</a><br>
> [5] mailto:<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> [6] <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> [7] mailto:<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> [8] <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> [9] <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.sugarlabs.org/</a><br>
> [10] mailto:<a href="mailto:rrbothra@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rrbothra@gmail.com</a><br>
> [11] mailto:<a href="mailto:quozl@laptop.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">quozl@laptop.org</a><br>
> [12] <a href="http://quozl.netrek.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://quozl.netrek.org/</a><br>
> [13] mailto:<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> [14] <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> [15] mailto:<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> [16] <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> [17] <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.sugarlabs.org/</a><br>
> [18] <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.sugarlabs.org/</a><br>
> [19] <a href="http://quozl.netrek.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://quozl.netrek.org/</a><br>
> [20] mailto:<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> [21] <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
> [22] <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.sugarlabs.org/</a><br>
> [23] mailto:<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> [24] <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Sugar-devel mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
James Cameron<br>
<a href="http://quozl.netrek.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://quozl.netrek.org/</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Sugar-devel mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
<br></blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font><font>Walter Bender</font></font><br>
<font><font>Sugar Labs</font></font></div>
<div><font><a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><font>http://www.sugarlabs.org</font></a></font><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
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