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    Gonzalo,<br>
    <br>
    I did look at the activity. However, I think there is immense value
    in introducing learners to the Terminal activity and the nano text
    editor. Through the shell, Sugar users have access to the file
    system and to all of the power of the Unix programming environment.
    <br>
    <br>
    At the moment the tutorial shows learners how to run their program
    as a shell command (hello.py as hello in /usr/local/bin). It doesn't
    show how to interpret options and arguments, but that might be very
    instructive to develop understanding of how command line programs
    work. Probably, the tutorial should discuss pipes and how they work
    with programs implemented as filters. I still have the book -
    Kernighan and Pike, Unix Programming Environment. <br>
    <br>
    When James and I started programming, constructive learning (called
    on-the-job training) was the only way to learn to program. He is
    absolutely correct - in that era you learned to write the complete
    program. I still remember that IBM 1401 programs started at memory
    location 333 (after the last position used by the printer). Our
    notion of an IDE was to have the card punch near the computer (as I
    recall, a standard tray held 2000 punched cards). <br>
    <br>
    There were libraries (punched card decks that could be added to
    programs) and own code procedures you could add to another program
    (e.g. a custom sort routine). There was even version control in
    punched cards (coding in cols 73-80) that enabled patches to be
    placed after a card deck that would overlay the earlier code at load
    time. <br>
    <br>
    Later, risc proponents were aghast that the Intel architecture
    segmented memory in 64kb segments, when at that time (8080) that was
    larger than the typical installed memory. The 64 in the Commodore 64
    highlighted a design flaw in the Apple II that limited its memory
    capacity to 48kb. Apple's architects at the time couldn't imagine a
    personal computer with that much memory. <br>
    <br>
    I fondly remember mentoring a middle-school student who was
    programming the IBM 1620, a decimal machine. His only reference was
    the IBM system manual. So he programmed in machine language. I
    obtained an Assembler manual (Autocoder), but he was happy to
    continue programming with absolute addresses. One day he came with a
    problem. He had gotten an error: out of memory.  What to do - he
    then learned about overlays - the technique of the day. But how to
    you introduce overlays to a program written on punch cards using
    absolute addresses and machine language? Game over.<br>
    <br>
    In his book James talks about virtual memory beginning with the
    System 360. I would rather refer back to RPG on the 1401 which was
    an emulator for the IBM tab machines (IBM 407). It was often claimed
    that most of the cycles on the System 360 were used running RPG
    programs written to emulate tab programs (implemented by wires on a
    punchboard). This is an historical forerunner to our current effort
    to rewrite Sugar activities in javascript. <br>
    <br>
    Tony<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/16/2017 11:24 PM, James Simmons
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAN6VRWzmaLHVFawUeLxXqFjeYcPsHh0joQZUSN5fZgexeoSnSg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Gonzalo,
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I looked at it maybe two years ago. I still lurk on the
          mailing lists for this project but I'm not actively developing
          anything, so my opinions may have passed their sell by date.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>James Simmons</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 6:33 AM,
          Gonzalo Odiard <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:godiard@gmail.com" target="_blank">godiard@gmail.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">Have you tried Develop activity? 
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4058"
                  target="_blank">http://activities.sugarlabs.<wbr>org/en-US/sugar/addon/4058</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class="gmail_extra">
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 12:32
                    AM, Tony Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net"
                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net">tony_anderson@usa.net</a></a>></span>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                      <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> James,<br>
                        <br>
                        Sugar now provides in the Journal a link to the
                        Documents directory. This, of course, has the
                        problem that the display does not show
                        subdirectories. I have toyed with the idea of
                        having the tutorials use Sugar Commander and the
                        excellent gedit activity instead of the shell
                        and nano. However, at the end I believe that the
                        Terminal activity is simple to use and that
                        learners should become familiar with the file
                        system through shell commands. The nano editor
                        is easy to use. <br>
                        <br>
                        I think that a second round of tutorials
                        introducing Sugar Commander, gedit, and git
                        could be introduced for learners already
                        familiar with shell commands and nano. <br>
                        <span class="m_-2331624047682042227HOEnZb"><font
                            color="#888888"> <br>
                            Tony</font></span>
                        <div>
                          <div class="m_-2331624047682042227h5"><br>
                            <br>
                            <div
                              class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-cite-prefix">On
                              03/15/2017 10:49 PM, James Simmons wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div dir="ltr">Tony,
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>I own an XO laptop from the first
                                  Give One Get One promotion, so I know
                                  what it can do. I've used the Terminal
                                  Activity and I wrote the Sugar
                                  Commander Activity because I thought
                                  that the original design of Sugar,
                                  which made your thumb drive look like
                                  the Journal, was not such a hot idea.
                                  In my opinion files and directories
                                  should look like files and directories
                                  and the Journal should look like the
                                  Journal. I know that some of the newer
                                  XO's can switch to a GNOME desktop.</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>I never tried developing Activities
                                  on an XO because I never had to. It is
                                  definitely easier to do things the way
                                  I do it, and for someone living in the
                                  U.S. with reliable internet it's
                                  pretty cheap. I agree that this is not
                                  the case for all the students, or even
                                  most of them. It's a case of "to those
                                  who have, more shall be given."</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>I had the same situation when I
                                  wrote <i>E-Book Enlightenment</i>.
                                  Free e-books in English are plentiful,
                                  other languages not so much. I had to
                                  write chapters on making e-books,
                                  figuring out what is in the public
                                  domain, photographing book pages,
                                  building a device to hold books in
                                  place for being photographed, doing
                                  optical character recognition,
                                  donating books to PG and <a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="http://archive.org"
                                    target="_blank">archive.org</a>,
                                  etc.</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Maybe MYOSA needs a chapter on
                                  using the XO for developing
                                  applications, installing Git and using
                                  it locally, etc. My own XO has been in
                                  a drawer for a couple of years.</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>James Simmons</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 15,
                                  2017 at 12:46 AM, Tony Anderson <span
                                    dir="ltr"><<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net"
                                      target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net">tony_anderson@usa.net</a></a>></span>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0 0 0
                                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                    solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div text="#000000"
                                      bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Hi, James<br>
                                      <br>
                                      If you go to <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="http://activities.sugarlabs.org"
                                        target="_blank">activities.sugarlabs.org</a>,
                                      you can register via the register
                                      link at the top right. This is not
                                      registration for Sugarlabs but for
                                      ASLO.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      As I understand the github
                                      repository, access with the
                                      ability to commit changes is
                                      closely held. The enables proposed
                                      changes to be vetted before a
                                      commit.<br>
                                      However, the web page has a sign
                                      in link which gives limited access
                                      (create pull requests and comment
                                      on them, for example). That same
                                      two-step process is used for ASLO.
                                      The developer submits the change
                                      which puts it into a sandbox
                                      pending review.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Actually Sugar has files,
                                      directories and a command shell
                                      (Terminal activity). It is
                                      relatively easy to switch
                                      activities via the Frame. I say
                                      this from several years of
                                      experience developing on the XO
                                      (easier than using usb flash keys
                                      to move code to the XO to test).
                                      The fact that Browse does not
                                      support flex and the unique XO
                                      screen makes testing on an XO
                                      essential if that is the target. <br>
                                      <br>
                                      The process of making changes via
                                      github to the Sugar core is
                                      certainly reasonable. However,
                                      nothing in this procedure
                                      interferes with a developer
                                      modifying and testing a change on
                                      an installed Sugar independently
                                      of the internet. Access to the
                                      internet being needed only to
                                      submit the change.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      The issue is not to use Sugar for
                                      everything, it is to use the
                                      available computer for everything
                                      (XO). In general, the XO is the
                                      first computer our users have used
                                      and, aside from an Android device,
                                      the only computer available. While
                                      used desktops and laptops are
                                      available, the $100+ funds are not
                                      available.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      The 'current setup' you mention
                                      depends on ready access to the
                                      internet, something not available
                                      for at least 2/3 of our users. It
                                      is a strength of Sugar that the
                                      source code is immediately
                                      available to the user without need
                                      of a repository (except access to
                                      activities not installed - a need
                                      supplied by a schoolserver). This
                                      allows learners to get into
                                      programming in a meaningful way
                                      using only what is installed on
                                      the XO. <br>
                                      <span
                                        class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215HOEnZb"><font
                                          color="#888888"> <br>
                                          Tony</font></span>
                                      <div>
                                        <div
                                          class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215h5"><br>
                                          <br>
                                          <div
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522moz-cite-prefix">On

                                            03/14/2017 11:25 PM, James
                                            Simmons wrote:<br>
                                          </div>
                                          <blockquote type="cite">
                                            <div dir="ltr">All,
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>I only meant to make
                                                the manual actually tell
                                                where we currently put
                                                our code repositories,
                                                without rewriting the
                                                whole chapter. (I had
                                                hoped that a Google
                                                Code-In mentee might do
                                                that, but it didn't
                                                happen). The one piece
                                                of information that is
                                                still lacking is how to
                                                have your account added
                                                to the sugarlabs
                                                organization. That
                                                happened so long ago
                                                that I forgot how it
                                                happened. If someone
                                                could remind me I'll add
                                                that information to the
                                                note.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>I haven't done any
                                                Sugar development in
                                                years but I do program
                                                computers for a living
                                                and I use Git in my day
                                                job.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Sugar has some good
                                                Activities to teach
                                                programming, but I don't
                                                think it is a great
                                                Activity development
                                                platform. For that you
                                                really need files and
                                                directories and a
                                                command shell, the
                                                ability to run Sugar as
                                                more than one user at a
                                                time, etc.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>I understand the
                                                desire to use Sugar for
                                                everything, but I think
                                                it would always get in
                                                the way. You wouldn't
                                                expect to be able to
                                                develop an iphone app on
                                                an iphone, or at least I
                                                wouldn't.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>If I wanted to teach
                                                Activity development to
                                                children I'd get some
                                                reconditioned desktop
                                                computers and install
                                                Fedora and Sugar on
                                                them. I have used
                                                nothing but
                                                reconditioned computers
                                                myself for years. It is
                                                amazing to me what you
                                                can get reconditioned on
                                                Amazon and elsewhere for
                                                around a hundred bucks.
                                                This is basically my
                                                price range for a "new"
                                                computer, and for that I
                                                can get a Lenovo or
                                                other quality brand with
                                                more than adequate disk
                                                space and memory. These
                                                computers are built for
                                                use in offices and have
                                                many years of life left
                                                in them. In Fedora you
                                                can run Sugar as a
                                                desktop environment as
                                                well as in a window. You
                                                can hook them up to a TV
                                                or a projector
                                                (something I remember
                                                many people wanted to do
                                                with the XO).</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>I don't see ASLO
                                                being separate from Git
                                                as a problem. I think of
                                                it like the production
                                                environment at work. If
                                                it's good enough to use
                                                it goes on ASLO. If not,
                                                it stays in Git, but I
                                                might push my code to
                                                the central repository
                                                so others could fool
                                                around with it.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Part of teach a child
                                                programming should be
                                                teaching him good work
                                                habits, and I think our
                                                current setup promotes
                                                that.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>James Simmons</div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                              <div class="gmail_quote">On
                                                Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at
                                                9:28 AM, Laura Vargas <span
                                                  dir="ltr"><<a
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:laura@somosazucar.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:laura@somosazucar.org">laura@somosazucar.org</a></a>></span>
                                                wrote:<br>
                                                <blockquote
                                                  class="gmail_quote"
                                                  style="margin:0 0 0
                                                  .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                  #ccc
                                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <div dir="ltr"><br>
                                                    <div
                                                      class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                                      <div
                                                        class="gmail_quote"><span>2017-03-14

                                                          7:13 GMT-05:00
                                                          Walter Bender
                                                          <span
                                                          dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a></a>></span>:<br>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0
                                                          0 0
                                                          .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                          #ccc
                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <div dir="ltr"><br>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_quote"><span>On

                                                          Tue, Mar 14,
                                                          2017 at 12:45
                                                          AM, Tony
                                                          Anderson <span
                                                          dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net">tony_anderson@usa.net</a></a>></span>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0
                                                          0 0
                                                          .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                          #ccc
                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <div
                                                          text="#000000"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <div
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830m_7517597654755239133m_-6695069844156775650moz-cite-prefix">On


                                                          03/14/2017
                                                          12:03 PM, Alex
                                                          Perez wrote:<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          I would think
                                                          ASLO could
                                                          simply be made
                                                          to inspect the
                                                          contents of an
                                                          activity, upon
                                                          upload, (since
                                                          it’s just a
                                                          zip file), and
                                                          look for the
                                                          necessary
                                                          string within
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://activity.info" target="_blank">activity.info</a>, such that
                                                          it could be
                                                          displayed
                                                          under a
                                                          “details”
                                                          section of an
                                                          Activity,
                                                          within ASLO. </blockquote>
                                                          <br>
                                                          What I propose
                                                          is that the
                                                          ASLO page have
                                                          a link to the
                                                          github
                                                          repository.
                                                          See the
                                                          attached
                                                          screenshot
                                                          which shows a
                                                          link to home
                                                          page. I would
                                                          see this link
                                                          being added
                                                          here.<span
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830m_7517597654755239133HOEnZb"></span></div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </span>
                                                          <div>+1. But
                                                          that can be
                                                          done if (1) we
                                                          include the
                                                          repo path in
                                                          the info file
                                                          and (2) do the
                                                          work on ALSO
                                                          to display it
                                                          (I think
                                                          alsroot was
                                                          looking into
                                                          this). </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </span>
                                                        <div>+1 to add
                                                          the repository
                                                          link field on
                                                          ASLO.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>This is an
                                                          example where
                                                          we all agree
                                                          that something
                                                          needs to be
                                                          done. <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Now, how do
                                                          you propose we
                                                          get it done? 
                                                          <br>
                                                           <br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <span>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0
                                                          0 0
                                                          .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                          #ccc
                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_extra">
                                                          <div
                                                          class="gmail_quote">
                                                          <div>You
                                                          proposal has
                                                          no bearing on
                                                          where the repo
                                                          is hosted, as
                                                          it should
                                                          not. </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote"
                                                          style="margin:0
                                                          0 0
                                                          .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                          #ccc
                                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <div
                                                          text="#000000"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830m_7517597654755239133HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"> <br>
                                                          Tony<br>
                                                          </font></span></div>
                                                          <span> <br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          Sugar-devel
                                                          mailing list<br>
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                                                          <br>
                                                          </span></blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <span><br>
                                                          <br
                                                          clear="all">
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          -- <br>
                                                          <div
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830m_7517597654755239133gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
                                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div><font><font>Walter

                                                          Bender</font></font><br>
                                                          <font><font>Sugar
                                                          Labs</font></font></div>
                                                          <div><font><font><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sugarlabs.org">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a></a></font></font><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          Sugar-devel
                                                          mailing list<br>
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target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/lis">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/lis</a><wbr>tinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                        </span></div>
                                                      <span
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
                                                          <br
                                                          clear="all">
                                                          <br>
                                                          -- <br>
                                                          <div
class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
                                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div>Laura V.<br>
                                                          <font
                                                          color="#ff00ff"><b>
                                                          I&D
                                                          SomosAZUCAR.Org</b></font></div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><font
                                                          size="2"><span>“No

                                                          paradox, no
                                                          progress.” </span></font></div>
                                                          <div><font
                                                          size="2"><span>~
                                                          Niels Bohr</span></font><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Happy
                                                          Learning!<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </font></span></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                  Sugar-devel mailing
                                                  list<br>
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                                                  <br>
                                                </blockquote>
                                              </div>
                                              <br>
                                            </div>
                                          </blockquote>
                                          <br>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              <br>
                              <fieldset
                                class="m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                              <br>
                              <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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</pre>
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</blockquote></div>

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</blockquote></div>
</div>


<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>

</blockquote>
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