<div dir="ltr">Tony,<div><br></div><div>I strongly agree that students should be exposed to the command line and learn all about Software Tools. The key, I think, is to give them fun things to do that demonstrate the power of the command line. They need something more interesting than Hello World and calculating the current value of the thirty dollars used to buy Manhattan Island.</div><div><br></div><div>I've used Python and shell scripts to write a utility that converts a Word or Libre Office document saved as HTML as an XHTML file that can be converted into a nice EPUB using Sigil. I've got another utility that takes an Instagram web page saved to the clipboard using Inspect Element in Firefox and downloads all the images. (Both of these use the Beautiful Soup library).</div><div><br></div><div>Whenever a student has a tedious job to do he should think about how a shell script and some Python might do it for him.</div><div><br></div><div>It sounds like you've been programming computers longer than I have. Where I work they think I knew Charles Babbage personally.</div><div><br></div><div>James Simmons</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 9:33 PM, Tony Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank">tony_anderson@usa.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Gonzalo,<br>
<br>
I did look at the activity. However, I think there is immense value
in introducing learners to the Terminal activity and the nano text
editor. Through the shell, Sugar users have access to the file
system and to all of the power of the Unix programming environment.
<br>
<br>
At the moment the tutorial shows learners how to run their program
as a shell command (hello.py as hello in /usr/local/bin). It doesn't
show how to interpret options and arguments, but that might be very
instructive to develop understanding of how command line programs
work. Probably, the tutorial should discuss pipes and how they work
with programs implemented as filters. I still have the book -
Kernighan and Pike, Unix Programming Environment. <br>
<br>
When James and I started programming, constructive learning (called
on-the-job training) was the only way to learn to program. He is
absolutely correct - in that era you learned to write the complete
program. I still remember that IBM 1401 programs started at memory
location 333 (after the last position used by the printer). Our
notion of an IDE was to have the card punch near the computer (as I
recall, a standard tray held 2000 punched cards). <br>
<br>
There were libraries (punched card decks that could be added to
programs) and own code procedures you could add to another program
(e.g. a custom sort routine). There was even version control in
punched cards (coding in cols 73-80) that enabled patches to be
placed after a card deck that would overlay the earlier code at load
time. <br>
<br>
Later, risc proponents were aghast that the Intel architecture
segmented memory in 64kb segments, when at that time (8080) that was
larger than the typical installed memory. The 64 in the Commodore 64
highlighted a design flaw in the Apple II that limited its memory
capacity to 48kb. Apple's architects at the time couldn't imagine a
personal computer with that much memory. <br>
<br>
I fondly remember mentoring a middle-school student who was
programming the IBM 1620, a decimal machine. His only reference was
the IBM system manual. So he programmed in machine language. I
obtained an Assembler manual (Autocoder), but he was happy to
continue programming with absolute addresses. One day he came with a
problem. He had gotten an error: out of memory. What to do - he
then learned about overlays - the technique of the day. But how to
you introduce overlays to a program written on punch cards using
absolute addresses and machine language? Game over.<br>
<br>
In his book James talks about virtual memory beginning with the
System 360. I would rather refer back to RPG on the 1401 which was
an emulator for the IBM tab machines (IBM 407). It was often claimed
that most of the cycles on the System 360 were used running RPG
programs written to emulate tab programs (implemented by wires on a
punchboard). This is an historical forerunner to our current effort
to rewrite Sugar activities in javascript. <br><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<br>
Tony</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div class="m_1161088237036191049moz-cite-prefix">On 03/16/2017 11:24 PM, James Simmons
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Gonzalo,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I looked at it maybe two years ago. I still lurk on the
mailing lists for this project but I'm not actively developing
anything, so my opinions may have passed their sell by date.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>James Simmons</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 6:33 AM,
Gonzalo Odiard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godiard@gmail.com" target="_blank">godiard@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Have you tried Develop activity?
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4058" target="_blank">http://activities.sugarlabs.or<wbr>g/en-US/sugar/addon/4058</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div class="m_1161088237036191049h5"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 12:32
AM, Tony Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_1161088237036191049moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank">tony_anderson@usa.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> James,<br>
<br>
Sugar now provides in the Journal a link to the
Documents directory. This, of course, has the
problem that the display does not show
subdirectories. I have toyed with the idea of
having the tutorials use Sugar Commander and the
excellent gedit activity instead of the shell
and nano. However, at the end I believe that the
Terminal activity is simple to use and that
learners should become familiar with the file
system through shell commands. The nano editor
is easy to use. <br>
<br>
I think that a second round of tutorials
introducing Sugar Commander, gedit, and git
could be introduced for learners already
familiar with shell commands and nano. <br>
<span class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
Tony</font></span>
<div>
<div class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227h5"><br>
<br>
<div class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-cite-prefix">On
03/15/2017 10:49 PM, James Simmons wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Tony,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I own an XO laptop from the first
Give One Get One promotion, so I know
what it can do. I've used the Terminal
Activity and I wrote the Sugar
Commander Activity because I thought
that the original design of Sugar,
which made your thumb drive look like
the Journal, was not such a hot idea.
In my opinion files and directories
should look like files and directories
and the Journal should look like the
Journal. I know that some of the newer
XO's can switch to a GNOME desktop.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I never tried developing Activities
on an XO because I never had to. It is
definitely easier to do things the way
I do it, and for someone living in the
U.S. with reliable internet it's
pretty cheap. I agree that this is not
the case for all the students, or even
most of them. It's a case of "to those
who have, more shall be given."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I had the same situation when I
wrote <i>E-Book Enlightenment</i>.
Free e-books in English are plentiful,
other languages not so much. I had to
write chapters on making e-books,
figuring out what is in the public
domain, photographing book pages,
building a device to hold books in
place for being photographed, doing
optical character recognition,
donating books to PG and <a href="http://archive.org" target="_blank">archive.org</a>,
etc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Maybe MYOSA needs a chapter on
using the XO for developing
applications, installing Git and using
it locally, etc. My own XO has been in
a drawer for a couple of years.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>James Simmons</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 15,
2017 at 12:46 AM, Tony Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_1161088237036191049moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank">tony_anderson@usa.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Hi, James<br>
<br>
If you go to <a href="http://activities.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">activities.sugarlabs.org</a>,
you can register via the register
link at the top right. This is not
registration for Sugarlabs but for
ASLO.<br>
<br>
As I understand the github
repository, access with the
ability to commit changes is
closely held. The enables proposed
changes to be vetted before a
commit.<br>
However, the web page has a sign
in link which gives limited access
(create pull requests and comment
on them, for example). That same
two-step process is used for ASLO.
The developer submits the change
which puts it into a sandbox
pending review.<br>
<br>
Actually Sugar has files,
directories and a command shell
(Terminal activity). It is
relatively easy to switch
activities via the Frame. I say
this from several years of
experience developing on the XO
(easier than using usb flash keys
to move code to the XO to test).
The fact that Browse does not
support flex and the unique XO
screen makes testing on an XO
essential if that is the target. <br>
<br>
The process of making changes via
github to the Sugar core is
certainly reasonable. However,
nothing in this procedure
interferes with a developer
modifying and testing a change on
an installed Sugar independently
of the internet. Access to the
internet being needed only to
submit the change.<br>
<br>
The issue is not to use Sugar for
everything, it is to use the
available computer for everything
(XO). In general, the XO is the
first computer our users have used
and, aside from an Android device,
the only computer available. While
used desktops and laptops are
available, the $100+ funds are not
available.<br>
<br>
The 'current setup' you mention
depends on ready access to the
internet, something not available
for at least 2/3 of our users. It
is a strength of Sugar that the
source code is immediately
available to the user without need
of a repository (except access to
activities not installed - a need
supplied by a schoolserver). This
allows learners to get into
programming in a meaningful way
using only what is installed on
the XO. <br>
<span class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
Tony</font></span>
<div>
<div class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215h5"><br>
<br>
<div class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522moz-cite-prefix">On
03/14/2017 11:25 PM, James
Simmons wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I only meant to make
the manual actually tell
where we currently put
our code repositories,
without rewriting the
whole chapter. (I had
hoped that a Google
Code-In mentee might do
that, but it didn't
happen). The one piece
of information that is
still lacking is how to
have your account added
to the sugarlabs
organization. That
happened so long ago
that I forgot how it
happened. If someone
could remind me I'll add
that information to the
note.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I haven't done any
Sugar development in
years but I do program
computers for a living
and I use Git in my day
job.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sugar has some good
Activities to teach
programming, but I don't
think it is a great
Activity development
platform. For that you
really need files and
directories and a
command shell, the
ability to run Sugar as
more than one user at a
time, etc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I understand the
desire to use Sugar for
everything, but I think
it would always get in
the way. You wouldn't
expect to be able to
develop an iphone app on
an iphone, or at least I
wouldn't.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If I wanted to teach
Activity development to
children I'd get some
reconditioned desktop
computers and install
Fedora and Sugar on
them. I have used
nothing but
reconditioned computers
myself for years. It is
amazing to me what you
can get reconditioned on
Amazon and elsewhere for
around a hundred bucks.
This is basically my
price range for a "new"
computer, and for that I
can get a Lenovo or
other quality brand with
more than adequate disk
space and memory. These
computers are built for
use in offices and have
many years of life left
in them. In Fedora you
can run Sugar as a
desktop environment as
well as in a window. You
can hook them up to a TV
or a projector
(something I remember
many people wanted to do
with the XO).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't see ASLO
being separate from Git
as a problem. I think of
it like the production
environment at work. If
it's good enough to use
it goes on ASLO. If not,
it stays in Git, but I
might push my code to
the central repository
so others could fool
around with it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Part of teach a child
programming should be
teaching him good work
habits, and I think our
current setup promotes
that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>James Simmons</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at
9:28 AM, Laura Vargas <span dir="ltr"><<a class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:laura@somosazucar.org" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_1161088237036191049moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:laura@somosazucar.org" target="_blank">laura@somosazucar.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span>2017-03-14
7:13 GMT-05:00
Walter Bender
<span dir="ltr"><<a class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_1161088237036191049moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com" target="_blank">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span>On
Tue, Mar 14,
2017 at 12:45
AM, Tony
Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_1161088237036191049moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank">tony_anderson@usa.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <br>
<br>
<div class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830m_7517597654755239133m_-6695069844156775650moz-cite-prefix">On
03/14/2017
12:03 PM, Alex
Perez wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
I would think
ASLO could
simply be made
to inspect the
contents of an
activity, upon
upload, (since
it’s just a
zip file), and
look for the
necessary
string within
<a href="http://activity.info" target="_blank">activity.info</a>, such that
it could be
displayed
under a
“details”
section of an
Activity,
within ASLO. </blockquote>
<br>
What I propose
is that the
ASLO page have
a link to the
github
repository.
See the
attached
screenshot
which shows a
link to home
page. I would
see this link
being added
here.<span class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830m_7517597654755239133HOEnZb"></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>+1. But
that can be
done if (1) we
include the
repo path in
the info file
and (2) do the
work on ALSO
to display it
(I think
alsroot was
looking into
this). </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>+1 to add
the repository
link field on
ASLO.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>This is an
example where
we all agree
that something
needs to be
done. <br>
<br>
Now, how do
you propose we
get it done?
<br>
<br>
</div>
<span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>You
proposal has
no bearing on
where the repo
is hosted, as
it should
not. </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830m_7517597654755239133HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
Tony<br>
</font></span></div>
<span> <br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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</div>
<span><br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522m_7726506093757599830m_7517597654755239133gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font><font>Walter
Bender</font></font><br>
<font><font>Sugar
Labs</font></font></div>
<div><font><font><a class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_1161088237036191049moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a></font></font><br>
<br>
</div>
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</div>
</span></div>
</div>
<br>
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</blockquote>
</span></div>
<span class="m_1161088237036191049m_-2331624047682042227m_-6995533451319397215m_-1535479521151755522HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Laura V.<br>
<font color="#ff00ff"><b>
I&D
SomosAZUCAR.Org</b></font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span>“No
paradox, no
progress.” </span></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><span>~
Niels Bohr</span></font><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Happy
Learning!<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span></div>
</div>
<br>
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</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<br>
</div>
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</td><td style="font-family:Arial;text-align:initial;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;padding:0px 10px"><div style="color:rgb(100,100,100)"><b>Gonzalo Odiard</b>
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