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Gonzalo,<br>
<br>
As I remember, the dialog only requested a description. It did not
request a 'title-supplied-by-user'. You may be right that the <br>
'keep' button was removed with this dialog although I remember that
as two independent decisions. <br>
<br>
The only 'save as' in the Journal I am aware of is that the user
could duplicate the object and then give them different names. This
would have to be done before either was resumed as the one that is
resumed is altered without the users control. <br>
<br>
The solution you propose is (except for the save as) available now.
The user can open the activity palette and change the name (except
for sugar-web-activities). However, in working with users, this is
not used. Unfortunately with Sugar as currently implemented, the
duplicate you create is too late, the object has already been
altered by the activity outside of the user's control.<br>
<br>
We do have lots of evidence from real users. We now have a way to
show Journal statistics. Activities in the Journal are named
'Write.activity', 'Paint.activity', and so on. I have rarely seen a
title-supplied-by-user. Perhaps someone has collected these
statistics can report a different experience.<br>
<br>
Tony<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/12/2016 02:11 AM, Gonzalo Odiard
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ+iPVT7cGVxNM7B0Ns-7jo8t2wKdbOwAyYEqBGeuMgxCfZWaA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">A few years ago, Sugar used to open a dialog to set
the name, description, etc when the activity was closed.
<div>(The dialog was similar to the detail view in the journal)</div>
<div>A lot of users complained about this dialog. </div>
<div>The purpose of the dialog was stimulate the reflection, but
the result that the dialog</div>
<div>interrupted the user when wanted to do something else.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then we added the feature Write_to_journal_anytime[1] [2]</div>
<div>and removed the dialog when the activity was closed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now the users can start a new instance or a previous
instance of the activity </div>
<div>from the journal or from the Home, but is true that
duplicate (or Save as)</div>
<div>is difficult to find, because is only in the Journal.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my humble opinion, ask the user the options as is
proposed is not a good solution.</div>
<div>If I would implement a "Save as" feature, I would just add
a "Duplicate" button</div>
<div>to the activity toolbar. Yes, the two will have the same
name, but then you can change </div>
<div>the name in the usual way.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Maybe you can set a empty name by default, and ask a name
to the user if is empty.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyway these changes would be tested in real users. Is too
easy make assumptions</div>
<div>but no so easy find a good solution for a big group of
users.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Gonzalo </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[1] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Write_to_journal_anytime">https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Write_to_journal_anytime</a></div>
<div>[2] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Write_to_Journal_Text_View.png">https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Write_to_Journal_Text_View.png</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 7:59 PM, Sam
Parkinson <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sam.parkinson3@gmail.com" target="_blank">sam.parkinson3@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
class="">
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Martin Dengler <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:martin@martindengler.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:martin@martindengler.com">martin@martindengler.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="white-space:pre-wrap">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 05:18:00PM +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
<blockquote>Hi Martin,
It seems to be nostalgia week. The goal is to have the user supply a name. Whether the text says untitled, Write.activity, execrable, or is left blank. The user will not be able to save until a title is supplied. There would be literally no 'untitled' or 'Write.activity' documents in the Journal.
</blockquote>
This design decision of not forcing the user to name an activity has literally
been consciously made since the first deployment of Sugar:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2008-October/009151.html" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2008-October/009151.html</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/3225" target="_blank">http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/3225</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2008-October/009157.html" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2008-October/009157.html</a>
("Sugar default naming scheme")
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2008-October/009152.html" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2008-October/009152.html</a>
The has many nuances, so I don't want to be the penut gallery too much, but it
seems to me that forcing kids to name activity instances upon closing[1] would
seriously change (for the worse, IMO) the Sugar user experience. The children
I have observed using Sugar would for sure spend longer closing and switching
between activities without any benefit from this modal alert. Is it only going
to be some activities, like Write, that require (or default to) this? Are you
sure you want to undo/change these very old design decisions?</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>I agree with you. I believe that there is a lot of
value in reminding the user to set a name - showing the
alert as the current patch does. But I don't think that we
should force the user to set a name - they will only set a
bad name, and they will feel like Sugar is working against
them.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think that the current implementation of the "Choose
a name" alert is fine. It serves as a gentle reminder.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here are some of my questions about the design:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would also propose that the "cancel" button in the
"choose a name" alert change to being a "delete" button.
(This was my original understadngin of the project).
Having a delete button there helps reduce journal clutter
by making it easy to delete the object if it is
un-needed. For example, if I made a write activity to
take a note, and then decide that I don't want to keep it,
I can just click "delete" instead of setting a title.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What is the purpose of the "overwrite" alert? I
thought that the overwhelmingly most common use case would
just be saving (or "overwriting"). Does overwrite seem a
little scary? It did to me.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, does the jobject get overwrite by the autosave
functions in Sugar, regardless of the user's choice in the
overwrite alert?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Sam</div>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="white-space:pre-wrap">
Martin
1. My interpretation of the hypothetical proposals in "Sugar Journal save
option" on <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2016" target="_blank">https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2016</a> and the video on
the "Save As" patch at <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcvBH7zzFBo" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcvBH7zzFBo</a> .
<blockquote>
Tony
On 07/11/2016 04:56 PM, Martin Dengler wrote:
<blockquote>
On 11 Jul 2016, at 15:44, Dave Crossland <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dave@lab6.com" target="_blank">dave@lab6.com</a> <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dave@lab6.com" target="_blank">mailto:dave@lab6.com</a>>> wrote:
<blockquote>
On 11 July 2016 at 10:40, Tony Anderson <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank">tony_anderson@usa.net</a> <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net" target="_blank">mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net</a>>> wrote:
I prefer 'Untitled' as it supports the intent of the alert - to
request the user to supply a title.
I also prefer Untitled, although I'm curious to hear why "xxx Activity" would be better.
</blockquote>
Actually, 500 "Untitled"s are so much worse than 5 sets of 100 "Foo.activity", because (in my limited experience) kids who can read know that "Speak activity" is different than "Write activity".
There are literally over a hundred emails about this design decision years back - it was not done lightly. I didn't even participate and I was exhausted by the debate.
Martin
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<div><b>Gonzalo Odiard</b><br>
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