On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com" target="_blank">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> wrote: <div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Christoph Derndorfer <div><div class="h5"><<a href="mailto:christoph.derndorfer@gmail.com">christoph.derndorfer@gmail.com</a>> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> > wrote: >> >> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Christoph Derndorfer >> <<a href="mailto:christoph.derndorfer@gmail.com">christoph.derndorfer@gmail.com</a>> wrote: >> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Dr. Gerald Ardito >> > <<a href="mailto:gerald.ardito@gmail.com">gerald.ardito@gmail.com</a>> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I wanted to share that we have faced the same criticisms in our school >> >> regarding the XOs. For the last four years, the teachers and students >> >> have >> >> complained that the devices do not connect well or reliably to our >> >> wireless >> >> network. >> >> >> >> Obviously, in our case, we have a wireless network and essentially >> >> continuous access to the internet. But, what I have had to fight >> >> against is >> >> that this is the most basic use of any computing device. >> >> >> >> The only way I have been able to stem this tide is to come up with >> >> projects and programs that made use of the XOs as standalone or mesh >> >> networked devices. For example, we have done a lot with Memorize and >> >> Etoys >> >> and Scratch (and beginning to work with TurtleBlocks). I have found >> >> that >> >> once the students and teachers are involved with these activities, the >> >> internet stuff goes away. >> >> >> >> But the bigger point that is missed in the story, and the broader >> >> conversation, is that the XOs and Sugar tap into non-traditional >> >> methods of >> >> teaching and learning. When this invisible line is crossed, real magic >> >> happens. It is the conversations which illuminate this invisible line >> >> that >> >> is tough. >> > >> > >> > Gerald, >> > >> > please don't forget that very few of the teachers in Peru have the >> > affordances available to you when you worked against that tide and >> > helped >> > your pupils reach that invisible line. You have received countless years >> > of >> > professional training, have ready access to the world's and the >> > community's >> > accumulated knowledge about using XOs and Sugar (thanks to the >> > Internet), >> > deal with student bodies who generally don't go hungry, have a pyhsic >> > and >> > social infrastructure that's available at very few Peruvian schools, >> > etc. >> > >> > In short, I believe in the importance of crossing that invisible line >> > and I >> > have been lucky enough to see some glimpses of that happening in the >> > past >> > few years. However a significant number of pupils and teachers in Peru >> > are >> > miles and miles away from that line and will need other ways of support >> > to >> > even get them close to it. >> > >> > I also think it's odd to see how the role of the Internet and the >> > connectivity it enables between people is apparently deemphasized in >> > this >> > conversation. I remember a time where Connectivity was one of the 5 >> > principles of OLPC, and for good reasons I dare say. Due to the >> > limitations >> > of the Mesh network (and similarly so the newer ad-hoc networking >> > options) >> > and the lack of infrastructure components such as access points most >> > pupils >> > and teachers in Peru barely have access to local connectivity and all >> > the >> > affordances (incl. Sugar's collaboration features) and value it >> > provides. >> >> No one is discounting the dire state of connectivity in Peru and as >> CJL pointed out, there are people activitly trying to do something >> about it, not just talk about it. > > > Point taken. > >> >> > >> > Also I believe that people here will simply have to get used to bad news >> > (whether fully justified or not) coming out of Peru. The project there >> > still >> > has potential but unless a lot of additional resources and brain power >> > are >> > invested into its overall value proposition and usefulness will always >> > remain questionable at best. >> >> I think you are projecting your own agenda on this discussion. > > > And you're not? ;-) </div></div>Actually, not. I am stating my opinion, not putting words in the mouths of others. There is a difference.</blockquote><div> </div><div>If that's how your perceived my previous message then I apologize, that was not my intention.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class="im"> > >> >> Again, >> no one is burying their head in the sand re short-comings, but at >> least some of us believe that lack of Internet access does not mean >> lack of opportunity to learn. > > > I'm not saying that a lack of Internet access equals a lack of learning > opportunities (and I agree with your fundamental criticism of the NPR > article there). At the same time there's no doubt that what is already an > *extremely* challenging thing to do under the best of circumstances (getting > across that line) is made even harder without Internet connectivity or > offline substitutes such as school servers. </div>Agreed. But perhaps for different reasons. I think the value of the Internet to the project is much more about building a community of practice and support than accessing learning materials. The Amazonas page in Facebook is a case in point. </blockquote><div> </div><div>To me the experiences, good practices, lesson plans, etc. documented by teachers are as much learning materials as anything directly used by pupils.</div> <div> </div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Christoph</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> regards. -walter <div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">> > Cheers, > Christoph > >> >> regards. >> >> -walter >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Christoph >> > >> >> >> >> Just my two cents. >> >> Gerald >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Christoph Derndorfer >> >> <<a href="mailto:christoph.derndorfer@gmail.com">christoph.derndorfer@gmail.com</a>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Sameer Verma <<a href="mailto:sverma@sfsu.edu">sverma@sfsu.edu</a>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Alexandro Colorado <<a href="mailto:jza@oooes.org">jza@oooes.org</a>> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> > On 10/13/12, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> wrote: >> >>>> >> Alexandro, >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> I think you are grossly underestimating the connectivity problem >> >>>> >> in >> >>>> >> Peru. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Yes maybe, but I understand most educational systems dont have >> >>>> > enough >> >>>> > budget to acquire connectivity so getting connectivity from other >> >>>> > sources like public buildings, libraries, will allow other resource >> >>>> > to >> >>>> > come through without needing to be funded by the educational >> >>>> > budget. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Now if we are talking about, the whole town not having ways on >> >>>> > connecting, then the next option would be looking for alternative >> >>>> > sources, in Mexico they used Satelite modems. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/10324524/Capacitacion-Para-Maestros-Uso-Del-Aula-Enciclomedia#page=15" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/10324524/Capacitacion-Para-Maestros-Uso-Del-Aula-Enciclomedia#page=15</a> >> >>>> > >> >>>> > But other mediums like DSL modems attached to a wifi router will be >> >>>> > able to get some basic Internet for HTML/images, IRC, etc. The big >> >>>> > question is about the level of connectivity for copper phone lines. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> It seems that a fair number of offline requirements will be served by >> >>>> the XS school server, but I don't see that show up in any of the >> >>>> conversations. Does any location in Peru use any version of the XS? >> >>>> (<a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/School_server" target="_blank">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/School_server</a>) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I'm not aware of any schools having school servers, at least they >> >>> didn't >> >>> have them when I was there in 2010. The next best thing were USB >> >>> drives with >> >>> some collections of offline materials compiled by DIGETE but as far as >> >>> I can >> >>> tell only a certain percentage of teachers ever received theirs. >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> Christoph >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> cheers, >> >>>> Sameer >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> regards. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> -walter >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> -- >> >>>> >> Walter Bender >> >>>> >> Sugar Labs >> >>>> >> <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> Devel mailing list >> >>>> >> <a href="mailto:Devel@lists.laptop.org">Devel@lists.laptop.org</a> >> >>>> >> <a href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel</a> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > -- >> >>>> > Alexandro Colorado >> >>>> > PPMC Apache OpenOffice >> >>>> > <a href="http://es.openoffice.org" target="_blank">http://es.openoffice.org</a> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> > Devel mailing list >> >>>> > <a href="mailto:Devel@lists.laptop.org">Devel@lists.laptop.org</a> >> >>>> > <a href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel</a> >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Sugar-devel mailing list >> >>>> <a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> >> >>>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Christoph Derndorfer >> >>> >> >>> volunteer, OLPC (Austria) [<a href="http://www.olpc.at" target="_blank">www.olpc.at</a>] >> >>> editor, OLPC News [<a href="http://www.olpcnews.com" target="_blank">www.olpcnews.com</a>] >> >>> contributor, TechnikBasteln [<a href="http://www.technikbasteln.net" target="_blank">www.technikbasteln.net</a>] >> >>> >> >>> e-mail: <a href="mailto:christoph@derndorfer.eu">christoph@derndorfer.eu</a> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Sugar-devel mailing list >> >>> <a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> >> >>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a> >> >>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Christoph Derndorfer >> > >> > volunteer, OLPC (Austria) [<a href="http://www.olpc.at" target="_blank">www.olpc.at</a>] >> > editor, OLPC News [<a href="http://www.olpcnews.com" target="_blank">www.olpcnews.com</a>] >> > contributor, TechnikBasteln [<a href="http://www.technikbasteln.net" target="_blank">www.technikbasteln.net</a>] >> > >> > e-mail: <a href="mailto:christoph@derndorfer.eu">christoph@derndorfer.eu</a> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Walter Bender >> Sugar Labs >> <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a> > > > > > -- > Christoph Derndorfer > > volunteer, OLPC (Austria) [<a href="http://www.olpc.at" target="_blank">www.olpc.at</a>] > editor, OLPC News [<a href="http://www.olpcnews.com" target="_blank">www.olpcnews.com</a>] > contributor, TechnikBasteln [<a href="http://www.technikbasteln.net" target="_blank">www.technikbasteln.net</a>] > > e-mail: <a href="mailto:christoph@derndorfer.eu">christoph@derndorfer.eu</a> > > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a> </div></div></blockquote></div> <div> </div>-- Christoph Derndorfer<div> </div><div><div>volunteer, OLPC (Austria) [<a href="http://www.olpc.at/" target="_blank">www.olpc.at</a>] <div>editor, OLPC News [<a href="http://www.olpcnews.com/" target="_blank">www.olpcnews.com</a>] contributor, TechnikBasteln [<a href="http://www.technikbasteln.net/" target="_blank">www.technikbasteln.net</a>]</div></div><div> </div><div>e-mail: <a href="mailto:christoph@derndorfer.eu" target="_blank">christoph@derndorfer.eu</a></div> <div> </div></div>