thanks for your replies, walter. i believe you were on the original ui design team and have been with olpc since, so that would make you the key person, designconceptwise.<div><br></div><div>agree absolutely that "obviousness" (after <font size="1">"Horton,W.
(1993) Let's Do Away With Manuals...Before They Do Away With Us.
<i>Technical Communication</i>, First Quarter 1993.") </font>is much easier said than done. that makes it something worth spending a lot of time on. but, after Heidegger, i suggest that the obviousness of an interface to a tool for learning - its "readiness to hand" - and its utility for learning are precisely correlated. i see xo as a vehicle (a window) for learning, rather than something to be learned. Papert's LOGO is a nice example of a tool that is ready to hand, even if its implementations often got in the way :)</div>
<div><br></div><div>so, perhaps i may begin by (re)asking the question: what do xo users want to do? </div><div><br></div><div>maybe they would say:</div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div>
play</div><div>or learn</div><div>or meet/make friends</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>so xo could simply offer them these three alternative doors (links, windows. whatever) as its homebase ui. there could be other links for advanced users, but the basic home ui should be aimed at first-time users.</div>
<div><br></div><div>opening a door takes you into another room with its own menu, etc</div><div><br></div><div>xo is supposed to be educational, so play offerrings should have an educational aspect to them.</div><div><br>
</div><div>we learn through play, so learning activities should be playful</div><div><br></div><div>and when we meet friends, we play or learn with/from them</div><div><br></div><div>so whichever we choose, we end up learning something.</div>
<div><br></div><div>next, how do kids learn?</div><div>- by imitating (that's how we learn our mother language)</div><div>- by exploring </div><div>- by watching/listening</div><div>- by experimenting (eg making their own movies)</div>
<div><br></div><div>i feel that experimenting with xo itself should not be part of its design purpose, but rather that xo should be a friendly tool to enable them to explore things that will help them learn things that would be useful to them now or later in life</div>
<div><br></div><div>such as:</div><div> first aid - what happens when you fall down and cut your knee?</div><div> compound interest - what happens if you borrow money?</div><div> musical instruments and the noises they make</div>
<div> etc etc</div><div><br></div><div>when it comes to exploring, like so many others, i have found google search to be a very useful ready-to-hand tool for exploring, so reckon it should be built in (one can search a local net if internet is not available)</div>
<div><br></div><div>the other notion i would like to see changed is the user-centric view of the world. we are necessarily the centre of our perceptions, but (i advocate) should not be the centre of our conceptions - rather we should see ourselves as one of many. therefore, i would not have an abstract xo avatar at the centre of the screen surrounded by a ring of hieroglyphs things or impersonal icons denoting other people.</div>
<div><br></div><div>personalisation of ui - xo could let them plaster their homebase with images they like, just as microsoft or ubuntu users choose their own background images. even hardnosed businessmen often have photos of their family on their desks...</div>
<div><br></div><div>and make it easy for users to choose their own size/style of pointing icon (i hate that intrusively huge black arrow! - and although i (think i) followed the instructions i was given to change it, they didnt work).</div>
<div><br></div><div>on the subject of EFL, you mentioned "Lots of separate efforts in the area. C. Scott is leading one. I am working with .NI and .PY on another. Love to get more input/help."</div><div><br></div>
<div>please let me know how/where to provide input/help. i have started compiling a list of quality open/freeware already out there that could be used/remixed/cherry-picked.</div><div><br></div><div>but to learn to speak english, watching movies and doing quizzes is not enough. there is <i><b>only</b></i> one way: you have to <i><b>speak</b></i> english. you can't learn to swim by watching a movie (although that does help). so an xo-based english tutor has to enable its users to speak and be understood. that means having a person at the other end. synchronous conversation is the best, but when that is not possible, asynchronous conversation is better than nothing. voicemail. later down the track, there may be ai good enough to fulfil the role. but much much later...</div>
<div><br></div><div>some english speakers want to learn russian. and some russian speakers want to learn english. xonet (assuming there is such a thing) could put them in touch with each other so they can each learn the other's language with the guidance of a<a href="http://www.learner.org/resources/series83.html"> Capretz</a>-style development.</div>
<div><br></div><div>which brings me to Skype. is it part of the standard release? i think it should be.</div><div><br></div><div><dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><a href="http://www.cambridgeesol.org/exams/index.html">Cambridge English –Quality range of English language tests</a></dt>
<dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><a href="http://www.englishclub.com/learn-english.htm">Learn English</a></dt><dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><a href="http://www.learnenglish.de/">Learn English Free Online</a></dt>
<dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><a href="http://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/">LearnEnglish | British Council</a></dt><dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium">
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi4nl9_Ny0I&feature=related">Learn British English with Video - Relaxing in the Evening with British English - YouTube</a></dt><dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium">
<a href="http://www.englishclass101.com/video">Learn English online. With our podcast, learning English is easy. | EnglishClass101.com</a></dt><dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><a href="http://elearning.insearch.edu.au/courses/GE01_Wk1.asp">INSEARCH English Resources</a></dt>
<dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><a href="http://teachers.guardian.co.uk/subject/english.aspx">English resources and lesson plans | Guardian Teacher Network | guardian.co.uk</a></dt><dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium">
<a href="http://studentscircle.net/live/category/english/">Learn English Language | Students Circle Network</a></dt><dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><a href="http://www.ocwconsortium.org/index.php?option=com_coursefinder&view=search&uss=1&Itemid=9&q=english&l=">OCW Consortium - Advanced Course Search</a></dt>
<dt style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/genre/learning">BBC - Podcasts - Learning</a></dt></div><div><br></div><div>david</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
<div>On 11 August 2012 00:52, Walter Bender <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com" target="_blank">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:</div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:18 PM, David Brown <<a href="mailto:djhbrown@gmail.com" target="_blank">djhbrown@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
> From: David Brown <<a href="mailto:djhbrown@gmail.com" target="_blank">djhbrown@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Date: 10 August 2012 12:13<br>
> Subject: sugar ui<br>
> To: Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com" target="_blank">fgrose@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:xorduino@gmail.com" target="_blank">xorduino@gmail.com</a>,<br>
> <a href="mailto:volunteer@laptop.org" target="_blank">volunteer@laptop.org</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> dear olpcers,<br>
><br>
> i am a recently retired computer scientist who would like to contribute<br>
> design ideas to the project. my cv is here.<br>
><br>
> having looked at the sugar interface, my first impression is that it needs a<br>
> complete rework. i do not know what its users (kids) make of it though, nor<br>
> can i find any data on user experiences.<br>
<br>
</div>There is little data in English, since most Sugar users are not native<br>
English speakers. But there are quite a few studies in Spanish<br>
(although less specific to the UI details and more focused on the<br>
overall impact.) You can find some materials here:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Recursos_en_espanol#Evaluaci.C3.B3n_de_Proyectos" target="_blank">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Recursos_en_espanol#Evaluaci.C3.B3n_de_Proyectos</a><br>
<div><br>
><br>
> i'm disappointed not to find any openly-published separately-produced k12<br>
> stuff on xo; perhaps it is all platform-dependent?<br>
<br>
</div>Not sure what you are referring to.<br>
<div><br>
> sugar is based on fedora<br>
> i believe, so would it run any app written for fedora?<br>
<br>
</div>Yes... but not all apps run equally as well, since Sugar restricts<br>
apps to single windows. (e.g., inkscape works well, the gimp not so<br>
well).<br>
<div><br>
><br>
> aside from that, i would be interested to contribute to an english language<br>
> learning project. there is a ton of stuff already out there which could be<br>
> collected together, rather than reinvent the wheel.<br>
<br>
</div>Lots of separate efforts in the area. C. Scott is leading one. I am<br>
working with .NI and .PY on another. Love to get more input/help.<br>
<div><br>
><br>
> is there a software development management structure? who makes the release<br>
> decisions?<br>
<br>
</div>We have a devel team and release managers.<br>
<div><br>
><br>
> is there an olpc executive operations management structure? why isnt olpc<br>
> in bed with national school curriculum/materials organisations? or maybe it<br>
> is - but if so, why aren't xos available to schools who can afford to buy<br>
> them?<br>
<br>
</div>It is a country by country decision. OLPC doesn't have the resources<br>
to operate unilaterally, nor should it.<br>
<div><br>
><br>
> what is the target age range of xo users?<br>
<br>
</div>6-12. The new machines with touch could reach a younger audience.<br>
<div><br>
><br>
> i like the notion of sugar network, but when i look at the screenshots on<br>
> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Network/Tutorial" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Network/Tutorial</a> i find it hard to<br>
> imagine what a child would do with it. a screen full of coloured x's does<br>
> not convey any useful information other than the number of them... it reads<br>
> as if it was made by unix enthusiasts for unix enthusiasts<br>
><br>
> scott's blog mentions an effort last year to develop narrative interfaces -<br>
> this sounds like a good idea, did anything come of it? i looked at the<br>
> video by Angela Chang but couldn't find any contact info for her. i noticed<br>
> the text she was displaying is not read out aloud at the time it is<br>
> displayed, which i would have thought is vital for a language learning tool.<br>
> she also seems to be of a mind that children would use it with their parents<br>
> in attendance, but children need to be able to learn a foreign language<br>
> without their parents' help.<br>
><br>
> this raises a general point, surely xo needs to be an "obvious" interface??<br>
> (ie users should not need any outside help to use it. it should be "ready<br>
> to hand").<br>
<br>
</div>Easier said than done. But your ideas for making things more "obvious"<br>
are welcome. But, FWIW, obvious and impact-on-learning are not always<br>
coincident.<br>
<br>
regards.<br>
<br>
-walter<br>
<div><div><br>
><br>
> david<br>
><br>
> website <<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home</a>><br>
> <a href="tel:%2B61%280%29266537638" value="+61266537638" target="_blank">+61(0)266537638</a><br>
> <a href="tel:%2B61%280%29488471949" value="+61488471949" target="_blank">+61(0)488471949</a><br>
><br>
> On 10 August 2012 01:58, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com" target="_blank">fgrose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 12:51 AM, David Brown <<a href="mailto:djhbrown@gmail.com" target="_blank">djhbrown@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> thanks for your comprehensive reply, Fred. i have looked at the links<br>
>>> you cited. i am surprised olpc is still using irc chat and mail lists - is<br>
>>> there an operational reason for this?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> The hardware & software developers at OLPC and Sugar Labs are most<br>
>> comfortable with IRC and mailing lists as they are part of their current<br>
>> cultural tradition (they feel part of the free/libre/open-source software<br>
>> tradition). Many are loath to using alternative, especially commercial<br>
>> software. The support staff and others at OLPC might be excepted from this<br>
>> characterization (in my estimation) as their work tools must align with<br>
>> standard business software.<br>
>><br>
>>> things like design require a lot of thought, and chat is not the best way<br>
>>> to provoke thought, as exemplified by the inanity of academic department<br>
>>> meetings!. chat is good for one-on-one socialising though.<br>
>>><br>
>>> here is one basic principle i would advocate:the xo interface (which is<br>
>>> intendedly predicated upon activity and communication) needs to be good<br>
>>> enough (suitable) for xo developers to use it for their own group<br>
>>> communication.... it's clearly not as it stands.<br>
>>><br>
>>> you mention "developers" and i read somewhere about "core developers". i<br>
>>> imagine there is a team somewhere, probably in Miami, that drives the<br>
>>> development. those are the people i would like to communicate with to start<br>
>>> with, to jointly come up with a better basic design than the current one.<br>
>>> then it could be implemented, bench tested and then beta tested on the user<br>
>>> community.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> The basic Sugar design came from Pentagram's Lisa Strausfeld, Christian<br>
>> Marc Schmidt and Takaaki Okada collaborating with Walter Bender and Eben<br>
>> Eliason at OLPC. Only Walter Bender is active with Sugar Labs or OLPC.<br>
>><br>
>> C. Scott Ananian, Director of New Technologies at OLPC, has a blog that<br>
>> tracks his thinking and work. Other current design work centers on touch<br>
>> input and community collaboration.<br>
>><br>
>>> i thought about subscribing to<br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/Sugar-devel" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/Sugar-devel</a> but it is bound to contain<br>
>>> lots of emails about implementation details that do not interest me - my<br>
>>> focus is solely on the user-level design style, principles, purpose, etc<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> The list will accept a non-subscriber submission (after a delay for<br>
>> moderation); or, you could use a Gmail filter, for example on [DESIGN], to<br>
>> limit your reading.<br>
>><br>
>>> are you a "core developer"? if home page design is a key interest of<br>
>>> yours, perhaps we could exchange ideas by email?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I am a volunteer, wiki coordinator for Sugar Labs, and work on Sugar on a<br>
>> Stick installation and replication scripts.<br>
>><br>
>> Alternative ideas and designs for the Home view would best be shared in<br>
>> the wiki (such as on a personal page linked to the discussion page) with an<br>
>> accompanying post to Sugar-devel.<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks for your interest. --Fred<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> website <<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home</a>><br>
> <a href="tel:%2B61%280%29266537638" value="+61266537638" target="_blank">+61(0)266537638</a><br>
> <a href="tel:%2B61%280%29488471949" value="+61488471949" target="_blank">+61(0)488471949</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
</div></div>> _______________________________________________<br>
> Sugar-devel mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel</a><br>
><br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Walter Bender<br>
Sugar Labs<br>
<a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>website <<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home</a>><br><a href="tel:%2B61%280%29266537638" value="+61266537638" target="_blank">+61(0)266537638</a><br>
<a href="tel:%2B61%280%29488471949" value="+61488471949" target="_blank">+61(0)488471949</a><br><br><br><br><br><div></div><br>
</div>