<div class="gmail_quote">Søren,<br><br>You raise some concerns that I have had. Over of time, I have come to slightly different conclusions.<br><br>On 18 September 2010 01:27, Søren Hougesen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:soren.hougesen@gmail.com">soren.hougesen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">For about a month ago, I asked as a curious outsider, if kids were actually hacking sugar.</span><br>
</div></blockquote><div><br>It is almost certainly the case that learners are hacking while using Sugar. I see less evidence that learners are hacking Sugar itself, but there is a lot of it: We often receive feedback through teachers. From my experience, Activity developers are more than willing to incorporate feedback from learners.<br>
<br>My personal feeling is that Sugar Labs needs to have systems that are clear and consistent.. But responsibility for teaching those systems to learners should be pushed onto teachers.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">In my search for bugging/debugging in Sugar I found the ‘BugSquard/Bugreport’ on wiki.sugarlabs and it says: <span> </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"><span></span></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"><span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">“If you're using <a title="Sugar on a Stick" href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">Sugar on a Stick</span></a> or another <a title="Supported systems" href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Supported_systems" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">distribution of Sugar</span></a> and find something </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">specific you think could be improved—maybe something isn't working the way you think</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">it should work, or you have an idea for how something could be better—you can file a <b>ticket. </b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">A ticket is a way for anyone to suggest to the software or project developers that <u>they should work</u> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">on something […]".</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">“[The tickets]” is the <i>most</i> important part—because reading the title of a ticket <u>is how a developer decides</u> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">if he or she is going to work on it”. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">I thought it was the child/sugar-user that should <u>decide on working on bugs/improvements</u>. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span></div></blockquote><div><br>I agree with the force of your argument. Interesting, I think that this process facilitates lots of involvement. <br>
<br>I feel that our approach is reasonable, because it balances several forces. For example, some learners do not want to develop software. Making it easy to receive feedback is important. This explains the emphasis on tickets. Tickets also centralise the feedback, which helps to avoid duplication. Also, this quote does not imply that learners are not entitled to become developers, just that developers do development. Lastly, we operate under a volunteer model. This means that it's important to recognise that developers do decide which tickets to fix.<br>
<br>There are other forces at play. I recall one thread on the development list that said there should not be in-code documentation in order to maintain the quality of the contributions of prospective developers. The reasoning was that if individuals are not able to understand the code by reading the source, then they are not qualified to contribute to Sugar's core.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">As Papert says on debugging: “</span><font size="3"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">Errors </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">benefit us because they lead us to study what happen, </span></font></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">to understand what went wrong, and, through understanding, to fix it” (Mindstorms - 1980 (1993): 114), </span></font></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">which is essential for learning learning. </span></font></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US"></span></font> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">I have trouble seeing the correspondence between the child/sugar-user taking charge, debugging </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">in Sugar-FOSS as a computational environment and a distant Sugar-developer deciding on </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">debugging or making improvements. To me the ticket doesn’t look like the child is taking charge. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US"></span></div></blockquote><div><br>"taking charge" is part of the story. Tickets do allow people to participate at the level that they wish to. If learners would like to learn how to fix the problems that, I think their teachers should guide them. I'm not convinced that Sugar Labs should be in charge of educating learners. I think we need clear, consistent instructions that can be taught to learners who wish to contribute.<br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"> <span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">I have 4 assumptions about this:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US"></span> </div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"><span>1.<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">The BugSquard doesn’t mean that the sugar-user/child can’t be in charge and taking control </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">and doing own improvements and bug-fixing in Sugar-FOSS- environment. If a child wants to release </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">Sugar 6.1 then by all means. The BugSquard is just there to help and assist the child/sugar-user who </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">doesn’t have the technical know-how to do improvements. </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span> </div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"><span>2.<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">Not everyone can release Sugar 6.1, 6.2 etc. That’s the mission of the Development Team. They…</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"> </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">“build and maintain the core Sugar environment. This includes specifying and implementing new features </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">in conjunction with the <a title="Design Team" href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">Design Team</span></a>, fixing bugs as they are found by the Testing team and the Sugar community […]” </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">(wiki.sugarlabs.org.). </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"><span> </span></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"><span>3.<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">Debugging and improving Sugar-OS is different from debugging and programming as a learning-process</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"> <i>in</i> a Sugar-activity like “</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US">Turtle Blocks”, which is the reason why..</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN-US"></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span> </div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"><span>4.<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">…it is possible to run Sugar-activities on Windows. It’s not possible to debug, improve, program and </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">hack Windows (not legally anyway). But you can still debug and program Turtle as a Sugar-activity that </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">runs on Windows. </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">If I’m right about assumption 2,3,4 then children doesn’t benefit from Sugar as a FOSS. That’s mainly </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">for Sugar-developers and the benefit of changing and reshaping Sugar for specific cultural needs i.e. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">languages, national curriculum-adaptation etc., a top-down-proces in a specific cultural context, that </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">exclude children’s points of view. more like a 'cultural empowerment'. </span></div>
</blockquote><div><br>I don't agree with these three.<br><br>2: there are no technical restrictions to new people experimenting with development builds. There may be restrictions imposed by teachers on learners.<br>3: I see Turtle Blocks and other visual programming languages as steps up to other text-based. In versions 44+, it is possible to use Python code in Turtle Blocks, meaning that the distinctions are increasingly narrowed.<br>
4: Very few Activities can run on Windows. Generally they are were neither designed for Sugar or Windows. For example, if I understand correctly, Turtle Blocks runs on the Smalltalk virtual machine - which is independent from the operating system.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">Last assumption:</span></p>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"><span>5.<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">Children benefits from Sugar because it’s a specific designed learning environment, but children </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">(most of them) couldn’t care less about FOSS, and they are not in charge of the FOSS-environment. </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN">They are in charge of the progamming and debugging Turtle not the Sugar-activity itself, </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" lang="EN"></span></div></blockquote><div><br>Probably not. Is that important?<br>
<br>Regards,<br><br>Tim<br> Identi.ca / Twitter @timClicks<br></div></div>