Ok, I think what's happening here is a breakdown in communication. When I used the term obvious, I was talking about Christoph's email... I was stating that perhaps the message, as I understood it, was that we need more data from the field... and that _the message_ was not obvious enough in the email. I never meant that the feedback was not obvious enough... or that developers were not doing enough to keep us informed. I really hope this makes sense. I'm a little concerned that I have to be so careful about wording. I sort of get the feeling that should one make any type of constructive criticism, this is immediately construed as a threat, and the person writing the criticism is forced to walk on egg shells. I understand that talking about what can be done better, or what should have been done that wasnt, etc causes very emotional responses because of the time people have given to the project, but should we really just shut up about this stuff? Or is there value to hearing people's opinions on how things could be improved? And on that note, I'd like to hear how I can improve gathering feedback for our Autonomous region, based on methods currently in place elsewhere. What I'm asking for is links to documentation that show how this has been done till now in South America, Nepal and Asia, Africa, Europe. I've looked around, but there is not too much information on the web. My idea is to try and automate this as much as possible by creating a set of scripts, or plugins that can measure stats and then send these (probably via xmpp) Someone mentioned munin, but this doesn't really give user statistics much though... its more of a network tool for servers for measuring performance, resource usage, and graphing these. What I am talking about is digitising the current manual feedback that is happening elsewhere (how many users running which apps, lesson plans being used, languages, how many computers requiring repairs, general problems people are running into, and generally people's feelings on sugar usage, maybe even surveys) kind regards, David Van Assche <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <<a href="mailto:tomeu@sugarlabs.org">tomeu@sugarlabs.org</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div class="im">On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 20:17, David Van Assche<<a href="mailto:dvanassche@gmail.com">dvanassche@gmail.com</a>> wrote: > I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying... all I said was "we need > more data from the field" </div>Well, I also understood that you said that it wasn't obvious enough. Which surprised me after all the noise lately about getting feedback. Anyway, I'm seeing feedback coming right now and also efforts to organize feedback gathering. So, let's do it! Regards, Tomeu <div><div></div><div class="h5"> > I am in no way blaming anyone for not getting feedback, on the contrary, I > am frustrated that the calls for feediback are not being heard enoguh, and I > am well aware of people's efforts to try and get this feedback. What I am > saying is that the feedback is not coming through.... does this make sense? > Or are you saying the feedback is getting through and I'm just not seeing > it? > > regards, > David > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <<a href="mailto:tomeu@sugarlabs.org">tomeu@sugarlabs.org</a>> wrote: >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 15:51, David Van Assche<<a href="mailto:dvanassche@gmail.com">dvanassche@gmail.com</a>> >> wrote: >> > Hmmmm... I have to agree with Christoph here. I didn't really see it as >> > being dramatic at all, but quite factual in fact. The western small >> > deployments really don't give us any useful stats on what is happening >> > on a >> > larger scale in the third world. >> >> Ok, but will give some other interesting information, or not at all? >> >> > And its important to acknowledge the >> > differences between these, which Christoph listed quite concretely. >> >> And isn't this stating the obvious? >> >> > I think >> > what may not have come across obviously enough was that we need way more >> > data from the field, in places where Sugar is being used on a large >> > scale, >> > and this data is just not getting to us. I for one, would love to have >> > some >> > cold hard facts about Sugar as used in South America and Africa. >> >> I'm quite appalled by this, you don't read the mailing lists where we >> make regular calls for feedback? Short from taking a plane and >> visiting school by school, I don't see what else I can do to get that >> feedback. >> >> You understand Spanish, search the olpc-sur mailing list for posts by >> Walter and me and tell here again if we don't ask for feedback. >> >> It's really frustrating that we are here spending our savings and time >> on this project, and not only the people deploying our software don't >> want to talk to us despite our requests, but other people still think >> we don't want to know about them. >> >> Frustratedly yours, >> >> Tomeu >> >> > kind Regards, >> > David Van Assche >> > >> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:21 PM, David Farning <<a href="mailto:dfarning@sugarlabs.org">dfarning@sugarlabs.org</a>> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 5:42 AM, Christoph >> >> Derndorfer<<a href="mailto:e0425826@student.tuwien.ac.at">e0425826@student.tuwien.ac.at</a>> wrote: >> >> > Sean DALY schrieb: >> >> >> IMHO, close study of small deployments makes them incredibly useful >> >> >> to >> >> >> all teachers and Learners. The observations and take-aways need to >> >> >> be >> >> >> triaged of course, starting with what can/should be done by Sugar >> >> >> Labs, but I am convinced many learnings will benefit large >> >> >> deployments. Until reliable means of sharing experiences and >> >> >> feedback >> >> >> (polls, questionnaires, council of deployers, etc.) can be put in >> >> >> place, microscopic study of a classroom using Sugar is well worth >> >> >> the >> >> >> effort, in particular for revealing blockers. >> >> >> >> >> > I'm not sure I really agree with this statement... >> >> >> >> Christoph please keep the dramatic headlines to olpcnews. >> >> >> >> In the above paragraph, Walter notes that many lessons can be learned >> >> from controlled environments which can then be applied to larger >> >> scaled, less controlled environments. >> >> >> >> Please note, this does not _exclude_ anyone from providing feedback >> >> from large scale deployments. Nor does it _prevent_ anyone from >> >> creating small scale deployments anywhere in the world. _all_ it >> >> states is that it is often cost effective to start small and grow as >> >> lessons have been learned. >> >> >> >> And yes, Christoph I _am_ holding your writing to a higher standard. >> >> Several times, you have described yourself as the voice of the >> >> project. >> >> >> >> david >> >> >> >> > Extrapolating the data and drawing conclusions based on observations >> >> > in >> >> > a trial that represents less than 0,01% of all current Sugar >> >> > installations is a risky endeavor at best and a serious mistake at >> >> > worst. Even more so when the environment between the trial (in this >> >> > case >> >> > GPA) and the global deployments really couldn't be more different in >> >> > just about every way imaginable (SoaS vs. XO, summer classes vs. >> >> > regular >> >> > year-long classes, Boston connectivity vs. Rwanda connectivity, 25 >> >> > installations in a school vs. 1000 installations in a school, US >> >> > power >> >> > infrastructure vs. Nepali power infrastructure, having a team >> >> > consisting >> >> > of Walter / Greg / Caroline supporting the efforts vs. being lucky to >> >> > maybe have a single person who has used a computer before, 25 pupils >> >> > in >> >> > a classroom vs. 80 pupils in a classroom, users that were raised in >> >> > urban North America vs. users who don't have electricity at home, and >> >> > I >> >> > could go on...). >> >> > >> >> > Yes, some of the findings at GPA will indeed be of a broad and >> >> > general >> >> > nature and subsequent actions will benefit all Sugar users. Yes, >> >> > projects like in Alabama, Austria, the UK and similar places will be >> >> > able to learn many things from the GPA pilot. >> >> > >> >> > But let's not forget that the current million Sugar users and (if the >> >> > reports are to be believed) also the next million Sugar users are >> >> > much >> >> > more likely to be found in Ancash, Kigali or Sichuan rather than >> >> > Boston, >> >> > London or Vienna. And I doubt that you'll find too many schools in >> >> > those >> >> > places that have a profile similar to GPA [1]. >> >> > >> >> > Just my 2 Nepali Rupees, >> >> > Christoph >> >> > >> >> > [1] "The Gardner Pilot Academy is the flagship full-service community >> >> > school within the Boston Public Schools (BPS). The school's vision is >> >> > to >> >> > educate the minds and develop the characters of all students in >> >> > partnership with families and community. To achieve this GPA provides >> >> > high quality teaching along with a range of social, emotional and >> >> > enrichment programs delivered by means of partnerships with an array >> >> > of >> >> > community organizations and individuals. Over the past twelve years, >> >> > GPA >> >> > has developed strong associations with four universities, several >> >> > health >> >> > and mental health agencies, the YMCA, and various organizations >> >> > teaching >> >> > visual and performing arts. As one of just 20 pilot schools in the >> >> > BPS, >> >> > GPA is exempt from district mandates. Therefore, GPA has autonomy in >> >> > the >> >> > areas of budget and personnel, along with the freedom to implement >> >> > innovative curricula, assessments, and interventions." >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > (<a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Gardner_Pilot_Academy#Gardner_Pilot_Academy" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Gardner_Pilot_Academy#Gardner_Pilot_Academy</a>) >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Christoph Derndorfer >> >> > co-editor, olpcnews >> >> > url: <a href="http://www.olpcnews.com" target="_blank">www.olpcnews.com</a> >> >> > e-mail: <a href="mailto:christoph@olpcnews.com">christoph@olpcnews.com</a> >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> >> > <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> >> >> > <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> >> <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> >> >> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Stephen Leacock - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue >> > that I >> > shall some day die, which is not so." >> > _______________________________________________ >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> > <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> >> > <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> >> > > > > > -- > > Mike Ditka - "If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given > us arms." </div></div>-- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning </blockquote></div> -- <a href="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/samuel_goldwyn.html" target="_blank">Samuel Goldwyn</a> - "I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong."