Perhaps not a lot of help but I like the last one on <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page</a><br>
If it was easier to change the school logo that would be great.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Eben Eliason <<a href="mailto:eben.eliason@gmail.com">eben.eliason@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo</a><br>
>><br>
>> Christian - I myself prefer the "rays" to dots which I feel too<br>
>> closely resemble networks in the Neighborhood view, confusion is<br>
>> possible (networks being connected to at startup?)<br>
>><br>
>> Fred - I'm willing to try that sunrise metaphor, tonight if I can<br>
>> (travelling today)<br>
>><br>
>> Re splash page with logo: in my next mockup I'll leave off the example<br>
>> school logo.and move that frame to the end. It might be better to<br>
>> "reserve" a frame for customizable logo or message, before or after<br>
>> the Sugar spash page<br>
><br>
> Yes, in that mockup the first screen is kind of overwhelming with<br>
> several logos and a few pieces of textual information. At the same<br>
> time, we tried very hard to eliminate the slideshow effect that feels<br>
> (well, is) like a bunch of marketing material that detracts from the<br>
> UI.<br>
><br>
> I think the Sugar logo should stand alone, so it reads powerfully, and<br>
> then be replaced in short order by the XO. Perhaps we could entertain<br>
> a text only solution to identifying the school, in gray beneath the<br>
> sugar logo. Thoughts?<br>
<br>
+1<br>
<br>
>> Version info: In fact I feel strongly about showing version<br>
>> information... or its corollary, making it easy to find. Teachers,<br>
><br>
> I think it's more important that we make it easy to find in the UI.<br>
> Kids won't reboot that often, and it would be silly to reboot just to<br>
> find that info.<br>
><br>
>> parents, admins, G1G1 donors unfamiliar with Sugar will not have the<br>
>> foggiest idea how to hunt down version information (Learners might not<br>
>> have trouble finding it - they will explore their machines ad<br>
>> infinitum - but they can't be expected to know about versioning). We<br>
>> are about to embark on hundreds of thousands of XO-1.5s running v0..84<br>
>> which will coexist with a huge installed base of v0.82 (and many<br>
>> earlier); SoaS with its simplified numbering scheme will (we hope) sow<br>
>> the seeds for preinstalled Sugar in distributions for education<br>
>> projects. We may be deploying v0.86 at the end of the year... aside<br>
>> from how we manage the Activity compatibility matrix, we need to make<br>
>> such info *extremely* easy to track down for someone interested in<br>
>> checking if Sugar + Activities are "up-to-date". Our strategy for<br>
>> teacher buy-in is star marketing on Activities (see press releases);<br>
>> making Activity installation/upgrade simple this summer is part of<br>
>> what we need to do to make SoaS possible in the classroom. Helping<br>
>> users understand what version they have (of Sugar, of each Activity)<br>
>> is a key aspect of that.<br>
>><br>
>> I agree that it's unpleasant to see numbers at boot time (especially a<br>
>> datestamped snapshot number). Why don't we borrow an idea from Apple?<br>
><br>
> We basically have this already. We ust happen to have an XO in the<br>
> center of the screen, instead of an apple icon in the upper left. The<br>
> info is actually in the "About my XO" section of the settings, which<br>
> might be one step too far. We could go back to an earlier design for<br>
> the XO menu and have a direct "About my XO" menu item which jumps<br>
> directly to the correct settings panel.<br>
><br>
> We could also separate the "About my XO" panel from settings, removing<br>
> it from the settings panel completely and showing it as it's own modal<br>
> dialog accessible via an "About my XO" menu item.<br>
><br>
> I would be fine with either approach.<br>
><br>
>> They have a tiny apple icon in the upper-left corner of the screen;<br>
>> clicking on it opens a window with the processor, RAM and OSX version<br>
>> number. In addition to the "About my computer" section in the Control<br>
>> Panel, perhaps we could show the version in the Frame? The bottom bar<br>
>> has room I think.<br>
><br>
> There's no need to expose this information directly. It will only be<br>
> needed on occasion, and the Frame is designed for the information you<br>
> want to carry with you all the time.<br>
><br>
>> When we start to get consolidated feedback, we will know if<br>
>> difficult-to-find version info is a problem for Sugar / Activity<br>
>> updaters or not. I feel sure it is and showing the version in the<br>
>> Frame (the one-glance status communicator) seems to me a good approach<br>
>> which would let us skip info in the splash screen.<br>
>><br>
>> Nota: my idea would be for each version to change the Sugar logo color<br>
>> too... potentially allowing troubleshooters to ask "what color is the<br>
>> Sugar logo?" and match that to the version number.<br>
><br>
> I would much rather see the logo change colors with each boot, but<br>
> changing with each release is a pretty cool idea. I would support<br>
> that. I think there are enough of combinations to make "wrapping<br>
> around" a non-issue, as long as we only change the color for major<br>
> releases (2 per year, on average).<br>
><br>
><br>
> Finally, regarding the animation itself: I Think the gray dots are<br>
> still the best option, and the clearest. They fit the style, but won't<br>
> be confused with APs. If we can in any way manage it, coloring the XO<br>
> in the child's chosen colors is really the way that color should be<br>
> introduced. The colored dots seem to undermine the importance of that<br>
> metaphor, for me. Everywhere else in the UI, color relates to<br>
> identity; has meaning. (All the more reason to change the sugar logo<br>
> colors with each release!) These randomly colored dots just don't seem<br>
> fit within that concept.<br>
><br>
> Also, if no "dot" solution seems to gain consensus, we could go back<br>
> to a simple progress bar, which is perhaps less interesting, but<br>
> simple and clean and matches the UI.<br>
><br>
> Eben<br>
><br>
>> thanks<br>
>><br>
>> Sean<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> Please indulge me to make another pitch for the 'sunrise' metaphor for the<br>
>>> growing ring.<br>
>>> Using the same color locations, the ring would build from sunrise orange to<br>
>>> midday yellow to afternoon greens and blues to dusky red-violets (perhaps<br>
>>> the darker one last). ?These are just common earth metaphors that might come<br>
>>> to mind as children worldwide--who may have never seen a analog or digital<br>
>>> clock--anticipate what may be waiting for them in their day ahead of them.<br>
>>> The ring would also build from one foot, and end symmetrically on the<br>
>>> other--a growth surrounding the nascent learner like a cover--a home--a safe<br>
>>> shelter for learning or a shower of celestial opportunities. ?"Will I grow<br>
>>> too like the graphic is suggesting?"<br>
>>> OK, these are just potential metaphors...<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I like that a lot.<br>
>>>> I'm with others on leaving the version number as well to the 'About my<br>
>>>> Computer' panel. (It can be referenced and then read as needed after<br>
>>>> booting, whereas the vanishing boot image just makes me nervous about<br>
>>>> writing down or memorizing a long number.)<br>
>>>> The Green Hornet, would of course only appear on a 'Graphic guidelines'<br>
>>>> page for deployments and packagers.<br>
>>>> I suggest you try this sequence:<br>
>>>> 1. a short, blank white field (infinite potential)<br>
>>>> 2. the small xo figure (just possibly me in a big universe)<br>
>>>> 3. the building ring and figure (what might be building for me? Will I<br>
>>>> grow too as suggested?)<br>
>>>> 4. the Sugar, and optional custom graphic, ?pausing, usually a<br>
>>>> machine-dependent variable time, allowing for reading (fixing the name of<br>
>>>> this tool and those who built it for me) ? ? ? ? Do we want a gray Sugar<br>
>>>> Labs opposite the fedora remix?<br>
>>>> (5. the living, playable, ready-to-open door to Learning--the Sugar Home<br>
>>>> view.)<br>
>>>> Thanks everyone! ? ? ? --Fred<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Fred - I have uploaded a new variant to the wiki:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_No_Prior_Outlines.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_No_Prior_Outlines.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 4:37 AM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>> > I mostly like it. ?Seems to be close to what we want for now.<br>
>>>>> > Please consider these adjustments:<br>
>>>>> > 1. ?No fine print (leave that for the 'About my Computer" panel).<br>
>>>>> > 2. ?Scale the custom school graphic example (Green Hornet) to fit the<br>
>>>>> > other<br>
>>>>> > elements, leave out the fine print.<br>
>>>>> > 3. ?Let the rays grow incrementally to complete the ring (no unfilled<br>
>>>>> > place<br>
>>>>> > holders). ?I feel more?anticipation and?suspense from the ring growing<br>
>>>>> > without the preview, and more satisfaction of seeing the completed<br>
>>>>> > color<br>
>>>>> > burst.<br>
>>>>> > ?? ? ? ?Thank you! ? ? ? ?--Fred<br>
>>>>> > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> Here's the second mockup:<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page</a><br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> This version includes a logo/copyright splash page and a "growing" or<br>
>>>>> >> "approaching" XO avatar.<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> Comments welcome please.<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> thanks<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >> Sean<br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> > Marketing mailing list<br>
>>>>> > <a href="mailto:Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>>>>> > <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing</a><br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>>> ><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Marketing mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br>
>> <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a><br>
>><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br>
> <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Walter Bender<br>
Sugar Labs<br>
<a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:35:33 +0100<br>
From: Gary C Martin <<a href="mailto:gary@garycmartin.com">gary@garycmartin.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [Marketing] [IAEP] [SoaS] Request for<br>
Artwork: Boot Screen<br>
To: Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Christian Marc Schmidt <<a href="mailto:christianmarc@gmail.com">christianmarc@gmail.com</a>>, Sugar Devel<br>
<<a href="mailto:sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org">sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>>, Eben Eliason<br>
<<a href="mailto:eben.eliason@gmail.com">eben.eliason@gmail.com</a>>, Marketing <<a href="mailto:marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>>,<br>
anything <<a href="mailto:anything@christianmarcschmidt.com">anything@christianmarcschmidt.com</a>>, iaep<br>
<<a href="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org">iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:72EDD1C7-8F95-4097-9380-A0E253AD806F@garycmartin.com">72EDD1C7-8F95-4097-9380-A0E253AD806F@garycmartin.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes<br>
<br>
On 4 Jun 2009, at 15:45, Sean DALY wrote:<br>
<br>
> Yes that would be very helpful I think<br>
<br>
I was just going to start tinkering again, I'll make an animated<br>
version of Eben's XO and progress-bar for evaluation.<br>
<br>
> If we can reach consensus by tomorrow and finish the actual PNG frames<br>
> over the weekend we will meet the deadline<br>
><br>
> but, we need a volunteer to do the frames (unless Gary what you have<br>
> is nearly ready; my stuff is cut/pasted mockup no color control etc)<br>
<br>
Sure, getting a series of PNGs from any of my mock-ups is just a "save<br>
for web" away.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
--Gary<br>
<br>
> thanks<br>
><br>
> Sean<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Christian Marc Schmidt<br>
> <<a href="mailto:christianmarc@gmail.com">christianmarc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> I agree with Eben's points below...<br>
>><br>
>> Maybe it would help if one of us mocked up the alternative he is<br>
>> describing?<br>
>><br>
>> Christian<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Jun 4, 2009, at 10:35 AM, Eben Eliason <<a href="mailto:eben.eliason@gmail.com">eben.eliason@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Eben Eliason <<a href="mailto:eben.eliason@gmail.com">eben.eliason@gmail.com</a><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Christian - I myself prefer the "rays" to dots which I feel too<br>
>>>>> closely resemble networks in the Neighborhood view, confusion is<br>
>>>>> possible (networks being connected to at startup?)<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Fred - I'm willing to try that sunrise metaphor, tonight if I can<br>
>>>>> (travelling today)<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Re splash page with logo: in my next mockup I'll leave off the<br>
>>>>> example<br>
>>>>> school logo.and move that frame to the end. It might be better to<br>
>>>>> "reserve" a frame for customizable logo or message, before or<br>
>>>>> after<br>
>>>>> the Sugar spash page<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Yes, in that mockup the first screen is kind of overwhelming with<br>
>>>> several logos and a few pieces of textual information. At the same<br>
>>>> time, we tried very hard to eliminate the slideshow effect that<br>
>>>> feels<br>
>>>> (well, is) like a bunch of marketing material that detracts from<br>
>>>> the<br>
>>>> UI.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think the Sugar logo should stand alone, so it reads<br>
>>>> powerfully, and<br>
>>>> then be replaced in short order by the XO. Perhaps we could<br>
>>>> entertain<br>
>>>> a text only solution to identifying the school, in gray beneath the<br>
>>>> sugar logo. Thoughts?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> Version info: In fact I feel strongly about showing version<br>
>>>>> information... or its corollary, making it easy to find. Teachers,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think it's more important that we make it easy to find in the UI.<br>
>>>> Kids won't reboot that often, and it would be silly to reboot<br>
>>>> just to<br>
>>>> find that info.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> parents, admins, G1G1 donors unfamiliar with Sugar will not have<br>
>>>>> the<br>
>>>>> foggiest idea how to hunt down version information (Learners<br>
>>>>> might not<br>
>>>>> have trouble finding it - they will explore their machines ad<br>
>>>>> infinitum - but they can't be expected to know about<br>
>>>>> versioning). We<br>
>>>>> are about to embark on hundreds of thousands of XO-1.5s running<br>
>>>>> v0..84<br>
>>>>> which will coexist with a huge installed base of v0.82 (and many<br>
>>>>> earlier); SoaS with its simplified numbering scheme will (we<br>
>>>>> hope) sow<br>
>>>>> the seeds for preinstalled Sugar in distributions for education<br>
>>>>> projects. We may be deploying v0.86 at the end of the year...<br>
>>>>> aside<br>
>>>>> from how we manage the Activity compatibility matrix, we need to<br>
>>>>> make<br>
>>>>> such info *extremely* easy to track down for someone interested in<br>
>>>>> checking if Sugar + Activities are "up-to-date". Our strategy for<br>
>>>>> teacher buy-in is star marketing on Activities (see press<br>
>>>>> releases);<br>
>>>>> making Activity installation/upgrade simple this summer is part of<br>
>>>>> what we need to do to make SoaS possible in the classroom. Helping<br>
>>>>> users understand what version they have (of Sugar, of each<br>
>>>>> Activity)<br>
>>>>> is a key aspect of that.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I agree that it's unpleasant to see numbers at boot time<br>
>>>>> (especially a<br>
>>>>> datestamped snapshot number). Why don't we borrow an idea from<br>
>>>>> Apple?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> We basically have this already. We ust happen to have an XO in the<br>
>>>> center of the screen, instead of an apple icon in the upper left.<br>
>>>> The<br>
>>>> info is actually in the "About my XO" section of the settings,<br>
>>>> which<br>
>>>> might be one step too far. We could go back to an earlier design<br>
>>>> for<br>
>>>> the XO menu and have a direct "About my XO" menu item which jumps<br>
>>>> directly to the correct settings panel.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> We could also separate the "About my XO" panel from settings,<br>
>>>> removing<br>
>>>> it from the settings panel completely and showing it as it's own<br>
>>>> modal<br>
>>>> dialog accessible via an "About my XO" menu item.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I would be fine with either approach.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> They have a tiny apple icon in the upper-left corner of the<br>
>>>>> screen;<br>
>>>>> clicking on it opens a window with the processor, RAM and OSX<br>
>>>>> version<br>
>>>>> number. In addition to the "About my computer" section in the<br>
>>>>> Control<br>
>>>>> Panel, perhaps we could show the version in the Frame? The<br>
>>>>> bottom bar<br>
>>>>> has room I think.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> There's no need to expose this information directly. It will only<br>
>>>> be<br>
>>>> needed on occasion, and the Frame is designed for the information<br>
>>>> you<br>
>>>> want to carry with you all the time.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> When we start to get consolidated feedback, we will know if<br>
>>>>> difficult-to-find version info is a problem for Sugar / Activity<br>
>>>>> updaters or not. I feel sure it is and showing the version in the<br>
>>>>> Frame (the one-glance status communicator) seems to me a good<br>
>>>>> approach<br>
>>>>> which would let us skip info in the splash screen.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Nota: my idea would be for each version to change the Sugar logo<br>
>>>>> color<br>
>>>>> too... potentially allowing troubleshooters to ask "what color<br>
>>>>> is the<br>
>>>>> Sugar logo?" and match that to the version number.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I would much rather see the logo change colors with each boot, but<br>
>>><br>
>>> I meant to take this back before sending, and forgot to. I actually<br>
>>> think changing the colors with each release is a pretty awesome<br>
>>> idea.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Eben<br>
>>><br>
>>>> changing with each release is a pretty cool idea. I would support<br>
>>>> that. I think there are enough of combinations to make "wrapping<br>
>>>> around" a non-issue, as long as we only change the color for major<br>
>>>> releases (2 per year, on average).<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Finally, regarding the animation itself: I Think the gray dots are<br>
>>>> still the best option, and the clearest. They fit the style, but<br>
>>>> won't<br>
>>>> be confused with APs. If we can in any way manage it, coloring<br>
>>>> the XO<br>
>>>> in the child's chosen colors is really the way that color should be<br>
>>>> introduced. The colored dots seem to undermine the importance of<br>
>>>> that<br>
>>>> metaphor, for me. Everywhere else in the UI, color relates to<br>
>>>> identity; has meaning. (All the more reason to change the sugar<br>
>>>> logo<br>
>>>> colors with each release!) These randomly colored dots just don't<br>
>>>> seem<br>
>>>> fit within that concept.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Also, if no "dot" solution seems to gain consensus, we could go<br>
>>>> back<br>
>>>> to a simple progress bar, which is perhaps less interesting, but<br>
>>>> simple and clean and matches the UI.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Eben<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> thanks<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Sean<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Please indulge me to make another pitch for the 'sunrise'<br>
>>>>>> metaphor for<br>
>>>>>> the<br>
>>>>>> growing ring.<br>
>>>>>> Using the same color locations, the ring would build from sunrise<br>
>>>>>> orange to<br>
>>>>>> midday yellow to afternoon greens and blues to dusky red-violets<br>
>>>>>> (perhaps<br>
>>>>>> the darker one last). These are just common earth metaphors<br>
>>>>>> that might<br>
>>>>>> come<br>
>>>>>> to mind as children worldwide--who may have never seen a analog<br>
>>>>>> or<br>
>>>>>> digital<br>
>>>>>> clock--anticipate what may be waiting for them in their day<br>
>>>>>> ahead of<br>
>>>>>> them.<br>
>>>>>> The ring would also build from one foot, and end symmetrically<br>
>>>>>> on the<br>
>>>>>> other--a growth surrounding the nascent learner like a cover--a<br>
>>>>>> home--a<br>
>>>>>> safe<br>
>>>>>> shelter for learning or a shower of celestial opportunities.<br>
>>>>>> "Will I<br>
>>>>>> grow<br>
>>>>>> too like the graphic is suggesting?"<br>
>>>>>> OK, these are just potential metaphors...<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a><br>
>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I like that a lot.<br>
>>>>>>> I'm with others on leaving the version number as well to the<br>
>>>>>>> 'About my<br>
>>>>>>> Computer' panel. (It can be referenced and then read as needed<br>
>>>>>>> after<br>
>>>>>>> booting, whereas the vanishing boot image just makes me<br>
>>>>>>> nervous about<br>
>>>>>>> writing down or memorizing a long number.)<br>
>>>>>>> The Green Hornet, would of course only appear on a 'Graphic<br>
>>>>>>> guidelines'<br>
>>>>>>> page for deployments and packagers.<br>
>>>>>>> I suggest you try this sequence:<br>
>>>>>>> 1. a short, blank white field (infinite potential)<br>
>>>>>>> 2. the small xo figure (just possibly me in a big universe)<br>
>>>>>>> 3. the building ring and figure (what might be building for<br>
>>>>>>> me? Will I<br>
>>>>>>> grow too as suggested?)<br>
>>>>>>> 4. the Sugar, and optional custom graphic, pausing, usually a<br>
>>>>>>> machine-dependent variable time, allowing for reading (fixing<br>
>>>>>>> the name<br>
>>>>>>> of<br>
>>>>>>> this tool and those who built it for me) Do we want a<br>
>>>>>>> gray<br>
>>>>>>> Sugar<br>
>>>>>>> Labs opposite the fedora remix?<br>
>>>>>>> (5. the living, playable, ready-to-open door to Learning--the<br>
>>>>>>> Sugar<br>
>>>>>>> Home<br>
>>>>>>> view.)<br>
>>>>>>> Thanks everyone! --Fred<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Fred - I have uploaded a new variant to the wiki:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_No_Prior_Outlines.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_No_Prior_Outlines.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page</a><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 4:37 AM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a><br>
>>>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> I mostly like it. Seems to be close to what we want for now.<br>
>>>>>>>>> Please consider these adjustments:<br>
>>>>>>>>> 1. No fine print (leave that for the 'About my Computer"<br>
>>>>>>>>> panel).<br>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Scale the custom school graphic example (Green Hornet)<br>
>>>>>>>>> to fit<br>
>>>>>>>>> the<br>
>>>>>>>>> other<br>
>>>>>>>>> elements, leave out the fine print.<br>
>>>>>>>>> 3. Let the rays grow incrementally to complete the ring (no<br>
>>>>>>>>> unfilled<br>
>>>>>>>>> place<br>
>>>>>>>>> holders). I feel more anticipation and suspense from the ring<br>
>>>>>>>>> growing<br>
>>>>>>>>> without the preview, and more satisfaction of seeing the<br>
>>>>>>>>> completed<br>
>>>>>>>>> color<br>
>>>>>>>>> burst.<br>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you! --Fred<br>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> Here's the second mockup:<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page</a><br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> This version includes a logo/copyright splash page and a<br>
>>>>>>>>>> "growing"<br>
>>>>>>>>>> or<br>
>>>>>>>>>> "approaching" XO avatar.<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> Comments welcome please.<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> thanks<br>
>>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>>> Sean<br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>>>>> Marketing mailing list<br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing</a><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>> Marketing mailing list<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>>>>>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Marketing mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:38:11 -0400<br>
From: Eben Eliason <<a href="mailto:eben.eliason@gmail.com">eben.eliason@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [Marketing] [SoaS] Request for<br>
Artwork: Boot Screen<br>
To: Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: anything <<a href="mailto:anything@christianmarcschmidt.com">anything@christianmarcschmidt.com</a>>, Marketing<br>
<<a href="mailto:marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>>, iaep <<a href="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org">iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>>,<br>
Sugar Devel <<a href="mailto:sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org">sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:948b197c0906040838s1d29758au86d8f84b95b982af@mail.gmail.com">948b197c0906040838s1d29758au86d8f84b95b982af@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Eben Eliason <<a href="mailto:eben.eliason@gmail.com">eben.eliason@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Christian - I myself prefer the "rays" to dots which I feel too<br>
>>> closely resemble networks in the Neighborhood view, confusion is<br>
>>> possible (networks being connected to at startup?)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Fred - I'm willing to try that sunrise metaphor, tonight if I can<br>
>>> (travelling today)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Re splash page with logo: in my next mockup I'll leave off the example<br>
>>> school logo.and move that frame to the end. It might be better to<br>
>>> "reserve" a frame for customizable logo or message, before or after<br>
>>> the Sugar spash page<br>
>><br>
>> Yes, in that mockup the first screen is kind of overwhelming with<br>
>> several logos and a few pieces of textual information. At the same<br>
>> time, we tried very hard to eliminate the slideshow effect that feels<br>
>> (well, is) like a bunch of marketing material that detracts from the<br>
>> UI.<br>
>><br>
>> I think the Sugar logo should stand alone, so it reads powerfully, and<br>
>> then be replaced in short order by the XO. Perhaps we could entertain<br>
>> a text only solution to identifying the school, in gray beneath the<br>
>> sugar logo. Thoughts?<br>
><br>
> +1<br>
<br>
I don't have an XO nearby my to try this, so perhaps someone could<br>
investigate for me. We also need to decide how many frames we show the<br>
Sugar logo for before switching over to the XO. One frame might not be<br>
long enough. This is important because the number of dots shown (if we<br>
do dots) will be directly impacted.<br>
<br>
I'd wager that the Sugar logo should remain for perhaps somewhere from<br>
10% to 25% of the boot duration (which may or may not be anything<br>
close to 1/10 or 1/4 of the frames).<br>
<br>
Eben<br>
<br>
>>> Version info: In fact I feel strongly about showing version<br>
>>> information... or its corollary, making it easy to find. Teachers,<br>
>><br>
>> I think it's more important that we make it easy to find in the UI.<br>
>> Kids won't reboot that often, and it would be silly to reboot just to<br>
>> find that info.<br>
>><br>
>>> parents, admins, G1G1 donors unfamiliar with Sugar will not have the<br>
>>> foggiest idea how to hunt down version information (Learners might not<br>
>>> have trouble finding it - they will explore their machines ad<br>
>>> infinitum - but they can't be expected to know about versioning). We<br>
>>> are about to embark on hundreds of thousands of XO-1.5s running v0..84<br>
>>> which will coexist with a huge installed base of v0.82 (and many<br>
>>> earlier); SoaS with its simplified numbering scheme will (we hope) sow<br>
>>> the seeds for preinstalled Sugar in distributions for education<br>
>>> projects. We may be deploying v0.86 at the end of the year... aside<br>
>>> from how we manage the Activity compatibility matrix, we need to make<br>
>>> such info *extremely* easy to track down for someone interested in<br>
>>> checking if Sugar + Activities are "up-to-date". Our strategy for<br>
>>> teacher buy-in is star marketing on Activities (see press releases);<br>
>>> making Activity installation/upgrade simple this summer is part of<br>
>>> what we need to do to make SoaS possible in the classroom. Helping<br>
>>> users understand what version they have (of Sugar, of each Activity)<br>
>>> is a key aspect of that.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I agree that it's unpleasant to see numbers at boot time (especially a<br>
>>> datestamped snapshot number). Why don't we borrow an idea from Apple?<br>
>><br>
>> We basically have this already. We ust happen to have an XO in the<br>
>> center of the screen, instead of an apple icon in the upper left. The<br>
>> info is actually in the "About my XO" section of the settings, which<br>
>> might be one step too far. We could go back to an earlier design for<br>
>> the XO menu and have a direct "About my XO" menu item which jumps<br>
>> directly to the correct settings panel.<br>
>><br>
>> We could also separate the "About my XO" panel from settings, removing<br>
>> it from the settings panel completely and showing it as it's own modal<br>
>> dialog accessible via an "About my XO" menu item.<br>
>><br>
>> I would be fine with either approach.<br>
>><br>
>>> They have a tiny apple icon in the upper-left corner of the screen;<br>
>>> clicking on it opens a window with the processor, RAM and OSX version<br>
>>> number. In addition to the "About my computer" section in the Control<br>
>>> Panel, perhaps we could show the version in the Frame? The bottom bar<br>
>>> has room I think.<br>
>><br>
>> There's no need to expose this information directly. It will only be<br>
>> needed on occasion, and the Frame is designed for the information you<br>
>> want to carry with you all the time.<br>
>><br>
>>> When we start to get consolidated feedback, we will know if<br>
>>> difficult-to-find version info is a problem for Sugar / Activity<br>
>>> updaters or not. I feel sure it is and showing the version in the<br>
>>> Frame (the one-glance status communicator) seems to me a good approach<br>
>>> which would let us skip info in the splash screen.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Nota: my idea would be for each version to change the Sugar logo color<br>
>>> too... potentially allowing troubleshooters to ask "what color is the<br>
>>> Sugar logo?" and match that to the version number.<br>
>><br>
>> I would much rather see the logo change colors with each boot, but<br>
>> changing with each release is a pretty cool idea. I would support<br>
>> that. I think there are enough of combinations to make "wrapping<br>
>> around" a non-issue, as long as we only change the color for major<br>
>> releases (2 per year, on average).<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Finally, regarding the animation itself: I Think the gray dots are<br>
>> still the best option, and the clearest. They fit the style, but won't<br>
>> be confused with APs. If we can in any way manage it, coloring the XO<br>
>> in the child's chosen colors is really the way that color should be<br>
>> introduced. The colored dots seem to undermine the importance of that<br>
>> metaphor, for me. Everywhere else in the UI, color relates to<br>
>> identity; has meaning. (All the more reason to change the sugar logo<br>
>> colors with each release!) These randomly colored dots just don't seem<br>
>> fit within that concept.<br>
>><br>
>> Also, if no "dot" solution seems to gain consensus, we could go back<br>
>> to a simple progress bar, which is perhaps less interesting, but<br>
>> simple and clean and matches the UI.<br>
>><br>
>> Eben<br>
>><br>
>>> thanks<br>
>>><br>
>>> Sean<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>> Please indulge me to make another pitch for the 'sunrise' metaphor for the<br>
>>>> growing ring.<br>
>>>> Using the same color locations, the ring would build from sunrise orange to<br>
>>>> midday yellow to afternoon greens and blues to dusky red-violets (perhaps<br>
>>>> the darker one last). ?These are just common earth metaphors that might come<br>
>>>> to mind as children worldwide--who may have never seen a analog or digital<br>
>>>> clock--anticipate what may be waiting for them in their day ahead of them.<br>
>>>> The ring would also build from one foot, and end symmetrically on the<br>
>>>> other--a growth surrounding the nascent learner like a cover--a home--a safe<br>
>>>> shelter for learning or a shower of celestial opportunities. ?"Will I grow<br>
>>>> too like the graphic is suggesting?"<br>
>>>> OK, these are just potential metaphors...<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I like that a lot.<br>
>>>>> I'm with others on leaving the version number as well to the 'About my<br>
>>>>> Computer' panel. (It can be referenced and then read as needed after<br>
>>>>> booting, whereas the vanishing boot image just makes me nervous about<br>
>>>>> writing down or memorizing a long number.)<br>
>>>>> The Green Hornet, would of course only appear on a 'Graphic guidelines'<br>
>>>>> page for deployments and packagers.<br>
>>>>> I suggest you try this sequence:<br>
>>>>> 1. a short, blank white field (infinite potential)<br>
>>>>> 2. the small xo figure (just possibly me in a big universe)<br>
>>>>> 3. the building ring and figure (what might be building for me? Will I<br>
>>>>> grow too as suggested?)<br>
>>>>> 4. the Sugar, and optional custom graphic, ?pausing, usually a<br>
>>>>> machine-dependent variable time, allowing for reading (fixing the name of<br>
>>>>> this tool and those who built it for me) ? ? ? ? Do we want a gray Sugar<br>
>>>>> Labs opposite the fedora remix?<br>
>>>>> (5. the living, playable, ready-to-open door to Learning--the Sugar Home<br>
>>>>> view.)<br>
>>>>> Thanks everyone! ? ? ? --Fred<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Fred - I have uploaded a new variant to the wiki:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_No_Prior_Outlines.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_No_Prior_Outlines.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 4:37 AM, Frederick Grose <<a href="mailto:fgrose@gmail.com">fgrose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>> > I mostly like it. ?Seems to be close to what we want for now.<br>
>>>>>> > Please consider these adjustments:<br>
>>>>>> > 1. ?No fine print (leave that for the 'About my Computer" panel).<br>
>>>>>> > 2. ?Scale the custom school graphic example (Green Hornet) to fit the<br>
>>>>>> > other<br>
>>>>>> > elements, leave out the fine print.<br>
>>>>>> > 3. ?Let the rays grow incrementally to complete the ring (no unfilled<br>
>>>>>> > place<br>
>>>>>> > holders). ?I feel more?anticipation and?suspense from the ring growing<br>
>>>>>> > without the preview, and more satisfaction of seeing the completed<br>
>>>>>> > color<br>
>>>>>> > burst.<br>
>>>>>> > ?? ? ? ?Thank you! ? ? ? ?--Fred<br>
>>>>>> > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Sean DALY <<a href="http://sdaly.be" target="_blank">sdaly.be</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>> >><br>
>>>>>> >> Here's the second mockup:<br>
>>>>>> >><br>
>>>>>> >><br>
>>>>>> >> <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Boot_Logo#Eleven_Color_Ray_Variant.2C_Growing_XO_Avatar.2C_Starts_With_Logo_Splash_Page</a><br>
>>>>>> >><br>
>>>>>> >> This version includes a logo/copyright splash page and a "growing" or<br>
>>>>>> >> "approaching" XO avatar.<br>
>>>>>> >><br>
>>>>>> >> Comments welcome please.<br>
>>>>>> >><br>
>>>>>> >> thanks<br>
>>>>>> >><br>
>>>>>> >> Sean<br>
>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>> > Marketing mailing list<br>
>>>>>> > <a href="mailto:Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>>>>>> > <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing</a><br>
>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>>> ><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> Marketing mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org">Marketing@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>>>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a><br>
>>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br>
>> <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Walter Bender<br>
> Sugar Labs<br>
> <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
><br>
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End of Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 8, Issue 20<br>
******************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>- Andrés Arrieta Perréard (XE1YAA)<br><br>