[Sugar-devel] Abandoned or orphaned activities
Walter Bender
walter.bender at gmail.com
Tue Jan 22 21:54:08 EST 2019
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 9:13 PM James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 01:29:56PM -0500, Devin Ulibarri wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > This was my experience:
> >
> > • I came into SugarLabs community at the time that this migration was
> > beginning to happen.
> > • I started a GH account because that is where I was told the software
> was
> > being maintained.
> > • I have continued to "go with the flow" and work via GH although I
> have come
> > to understand more of the history and context of this matter.
> >
> > These are my thoughts and opinions:
> >
> > • I remember an argument that one reason to move to GH is "that is
> where all
> > the developers are", but since our migration I have seen so many kids
> > (usually GCI) set up new accounts with GH in order to contribute to
> SL (and
> > to participate in GCI). This makes me think that many people are
> willing to
> > join our development regardless of whatever tools/services we use,
> and
> > whatever tool/services we use, if they are not yet setup with them,
> they
> > are willing to get setup in order to join development.
> > • Another argument seems to boil down to "we will be more productive
> using GH
> > because we need not worry about the hassle of maintaining our own
> code
> > hosting service". Is there evidence that we are more productive now
> than
> > before? Not having the opportunity to learn/use the other systems, I
> would
> > only be guessing.
>
> Not much evidence, it's about the same. Like any tooling, you get
> good at it with time. More productive now through the pull request
> and issue integration, but less productive through loss of situational
> awareness; changes are hidden in GitHub rather than being posted to
> sugar-devel@, and new developers fixate on their favourite
> repositories.
>
> > • In theory, SL running its own version control, seems to me like it
> would be
> > a) more fun for someone interested in this kind of work, b) a
> learning
> > opportunity, and c) gives maximum freedom/flexibility to the ways in
> which
> > we would like to do development.
>
> git.sugarlabs.org hasn't needed any significant maintenance, and is
> probably insecure now because of vulnerabilities that haven't been
> patched.
>
> bugs.sugarlabs.org has needed updates, but they have generally worked
> well.
>
The spam issue made it almost unusable.
>
> > • I would rather be using software that is licensed under a FLOSS
> license
> > than a proprietary license. gnu.org came up with some criteria to
> evaluate
> > "code hosting services" such as GH: [1]https://www.gnu.org/software/
> > repo-criteria.html (which, btw, gets an "F", the lowest grade) The
> whole
> > reason I am in this in the first place is because I believe the
> free/libre
> > model of software to be the best for society and education.
>
> Yes, I agree. Setting up an instance of GitLab could be done, but we
> would need someone willing to do that and maintain it. Or we could
> use GitLab directly as other projects have done.
>
What does that accomplish at this point? (That being said, I use GitLab for
other projects and it works just fine.)
>
> >
> > Devin
> >
> > On Tue, 2019-01-22 at 07:15 +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
> >
> > Walter,
> >
> > I will try. I am moving on Feb 3 to Palawan. I'll try to get to it
> then. My
> > principal concern re GSOC is to define projects with manageable
> scope -
> > many of the past projects ended undelivered.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > On 1/21/19 3:10 PM, Walter Bender wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 3:44 AM James Cameron <[2]
> quozl at laptop.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Fascinating, I never thought the move to GitHub was ever
> going to
> > achieve all that. It was to enable a shutdown of the
> unmaintained
> > gitorious instance at [3]git.sugarlabs.org. Which still
> hasn't
> > happened
> > because it is still useful, in turn because this community
> hasn't
> > the
> > time to do the necessary leg work to finish the move to
> GitHub.
> >
> > I would be curious what is still on Gitorious that hasn't been
> > migrated.
> >
> > FWIW, my principle motivations for the move were (1) as James
> points
> > out -- on less piece of infrastructure for us to maintain; and
> (2)
> > GitHub for better or worse is much more familiar to and likely
> to be
> > discovered by potential developers. I think GH has been a decent
> tool
> > which requires minimal effort on our part. Not sure that the
> latter
> > really amounts to too much.
> >
> > Re Tony's point about the ownership model, I don't see that
> anything we
> > are doing suggests we don't want to continue to support
> individual
> > contributions. I interpreted James's list not as a matter of
> ownership
> > but rather a surfacing of what is actually happening re
> maintenance. In
> > some sense, what is being articulated is the equivalent of the
> Fructose
> > vs Honey nomenclature of the past where the core developers are
> saying:
> > "These activities will be maintained. Cannot speak for everything
> > else."
> >
> > That said, I think Tony makes a great point re thinking about the
> > pedagogical implications of our choices, which have had little
> if any
> > input from the learning side of the house. Would be great to get
> more
> > input to help us in regard to what is most valuable to our users
> > (whether they know it or not). [4]@Tony Anderson would be great
> if you
> > could rework you thoughts about Python into a GSoC idea.
> >
> > regards.
> >
> > -walter
> >
> >
> > In short, it has nothing to do with the tools, and
> everything to do
> > with contributors.
> >
> > I'll continue to focus on the activities I've got on my
> list. That
> > doesn't mean I won't help with the other activities, but I
> won't
> > necessarily spend as much time with the others.
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:12:01AM +0200, Tony Anderson
> wrote:
> > > While it is marvelous to see some actual attention to the
> Sugar
> > activities,
> > > this approach is the direct opposite of the logic behind
> the move
> > of the
> > > activities to gitHub. This is a return to the G1G1 model
> in which
> > individuals
> > > develop, contribute and own activities. There can be no
> abandoned
> > or orphaned
> > > activities in a community support model.
> > >
> > > It was recognized by Walter and others that there were two
> > factors which made
> > > that ownership model unworkable. First, changes in Sugar
> software
> > support such
> > > as the move to GTK3 made common changes to all activities
> > necessary and,
> > > second, that many of the original contributors are no
> longer
> > involved with
> > > Sugar.
> > >
> > > GitHub was touted as the way in which Sugar Labs as a
> community
> > would support
> > > Sugar and its library of activities. However, in practice
> support
> > for
> > > activities has become increasingly limited to a small
> number of
> > ones selected
> > > for inclusion in the 13.2 series of builds.
> > >
> > > The Sugar activities library is made available to our
> users via
> > ASLO.
> > > Unfortunately, there are activities with new versions in
> gitHub
> > which have not
> > > been released to ASLO and thus are unknown to our users.
> There is
> > even
> > > confusion over which 'github'. It has to be kept clear that
> > developers can use
> > > any method they chose. What is controlled is the
> repository on
> > gitHub. Any
> > > changes outside of the Sugar Labs github are invisible
> until they
> > are submitted
> > > as a new version.
> > >
> > > Educational intent
> > >
> > > What I would like to see is a return to the founding
> philosophy
> > of Sugar.
> > > Everyone is welcome to contribute. When you get 10 lines
> of code
> > working,
> > > submit your activity. Sugar is designed to provide all the
> > software tools
> > > needed to develop activities in Sugar - no
> cross-development,
> > containers, or
> > > virtual environments. Instead of requesting new
> contributors to
> > demonstrate
> > > their technical proficiency by putting their name on the
> XO icon
> > in the Home
> > > View, identify some real examples of changes that would
> improve
> > Sugar. There
> > > are plenty available:
> > >
> > > Fix the icons on 'my settings' so they are visible instead
> of
> > switching to
> > > gnome by clicking on the big toe.
> > > When you take a screenshot and switch to the Journal to
> give it a
> > title, you
> > > must use the Frame to return, not the Activity key.
> > > The kids love the ability to customize their laptop with a
> > background picture.
> > > Unfortunately this often makes the icons in the Home View
> > invisible.
> > > Add Jupyter Notebook as a built-in capability of Sugar
> (possibly
> > as a service
> > > of Browse).
> > > Help solve problems with a long list of activities (such
> as the
> > lack of sound
> > > in Block Party).
> > > Find a way for Browse to support the css FlexBox.
> > >
> > > Stop using Pippy as a ceiling to our users learning to
> program in
> > Python. They
> > > can work up to 'Make your own Sugar Activities'. Start
> with the
> > Hello World
> > > activity. Explain GTK and its benefits. PyDebug provides
> recipes
> > for many
> > > common coding situations. Stop hiding the Terminal and Log
> > activities - try to
> > > encourage them to become favorites. Soon we could see a new
> > generation of
> > > user-programmers as we did in Uruguay.
> > >
> > > Along this theme, we should embrace the RPI and its
> compatriots
> > as a way to
> > > make embedded computing tangible. It would not be
> difficult to
> > connect such a
> > > device via the Ad Hoc network so that it could be used to
> > transfer a program
> > > written on an XO to the device and execute it with the user
> > seeing the results
> > > on LEDs (e.g. Sense Hat).
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > On 1/20/19 3:48 PM, Walter Bender wrote:
> > >
> > > I noticed Dimensions fell off the list. I will take
> that one
> > on as I think
> > > it is of real value.
> > >
> > > -walter
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 8:44 AM James Cameron <[1][5]
> > quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks. So the list looks like;
> > >
> > > # Walter Bender
> > >
> > > * Music Blocks,
> > > * Turtle Blocks JS,
> > >
> > > # Rahul Bothra
> > >
> > > * CowBulls,
> > > * Flappy,
> > > * Cedit,
> > > * Polari,
> > >
> > > # James Cameron
> > >
> > > * Abacus,
> > > * Browse (master),
> > > * Browse (fedora 18 - webkit - v157.x),
> > > * Calculator,
> > > * Chart,
> > > * Chat,
> > > * Clock,
> > > * Develop,
> > > * Distance,
> > > * Finance,
> > > * Find Words,
> > > * Fototoon,
> > > * Fraction Bounce,
> > > * Gears,
> > > * GetBooks,
> > > * Help,
> > > * ImageViewer,
> > > * Implode,
> > > * Jukebox,
> > > * Labyrinth,
> > > * Letters,
> > > * Log,
> > > * Maze,
> > > * Measure,
> > > * Memorize,
> > > * Moon (master),
> > > * Moon (fedora 18 - gtk2 - v17.x),
> > > * MusicKeyboard (master),
> > > * MusicKeyboard (fedora 18 - csound - v8.x),
> > > * Paint,
> > > * Physics,
> > > * Pippy,
> > > * Poll,
> > > * Portfolio,
> > > * Read (master),
> > > * Read (fedora 18 - webkit - v118.x),
> > > * Record (master),
> > > * Record (fedora 18 - gstreamer - v10x),
> > > * SimpleEnglishWikipedia,
> > > * Speak,
> > > * StopWatch,
> > > * Story,
> > > * Terminal,
> > > * TurtleBlocks,
> > > * Words,
> > > * Write,
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 09:04:50AM -0500, Walter
> Bender
> > wrote:
> > > > I am actively maintaining Music Blocks and Turtle
> > Blocks JS.
> > > > I just haven't had the bandwidth to do much
> beyond that
> > of late. That
> > > said, I
> > > > am happy to kibbutz on any of the activities
> which I
> > used to
> > > maintain.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:11 AM Rahul Bothra
> <[1][2]
> > > [6]rrbothra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > *
> > > > I am maintaining CowBulls and Flappy.
> > > >
> > > > I can take up cedit and Polari
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:53 PM James
> Cameron <[2]
> > [3]
> > > [7]quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Once we had a list of abandoned
> activities,
> > where the
> > > maintainer is
> > > > missing in action, not doing testing or
> > releasing.
> > > >
> > > > Now, I propose the inverse; a list of
> > activities with a
> > > maintainer
> > > > testing and releasing. It will be
> easier to
> > maintain that
> > > list.
> > > >
> > > > For myself, each of the Fructose
> activities,
> > each of the
> > > activities we
> > > > ship on OLPC OS. I know Walter is
> looking
> > after Music
> > > Blocks. Lionel
> > > > is looking after Sugarizer. Are there
> any
> > other developers
> > > who are
> > > > maintainers?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Cameron
> > > > [3][4][8]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > > [4][5][9]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > > [5][6][10]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> > sugar-devel
> > > >
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > > [6][7][11]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > > [7][8][12]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> > sugar-devel
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Walter Bender
> > > > Sugar Labs
> > > > [8][9][13]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> > > > [9]
> > > >
> > > > References:
> > > >
> > > > [1] mailto:[10][14]rrbothra at gmail.com
> > > > [2] mailto:[11][15]quozl at laptop.org
> > > > [3] [12][16]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > > [4] mailto:[13][17]
> Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > > [5] [14][18]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> > sugar-devel
> > > > [6] mailto:[15][19]
> Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > > [7] [16][20]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> > sugar-devel
> > > > [8] [17][21]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > > > [9] [18][22]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Cameron
> > > [19][23]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > [20][24]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [21][25]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > >
> > > --
> > > Walter Bender
> > > Sugar Labs
> > > [22][26]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > [23][27]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [24][28]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > >
> > > References:
> > >
> > > [1] mailto:[29]quozl at laptop.org
> > > [2] mailto:[30]rrbothra at gmail.com
> > > [3] mailto:[31]quozl at laptop.org
> > > [4] [32]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > [5] mailto:[33]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [6] [34]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > > [7] mailto:[35]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [8] [36]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > > [9] [37]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > > [10] mailto:[38]rrbothra at gmail.com
> > > [11] mailto:[39]quozl at laptop.org
> > > [12] [40]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > [13] mailto:[41]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [14] [42]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > > [15] mailto:[43]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [16] [44]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > > [17] [45]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > > [18] [46]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > > [19] [47]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > [20] mailto:[48]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [21] [49]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > > [22] [50]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > > [23] mailto:[51]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [24] [52]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > [53]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [54]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> > --
> > James Cameron
> > [55]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [56]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [57]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> > --
> > Walter Bender
> > Sugar Labs
> > [58]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [59]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [60]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [61]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [62]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> > References:
> >
> > [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html
> > [2] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [3] http://git.sugarlabs.org/
> > [4] mailto:tony_anderson at usa.net
> > [5] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [6] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [7] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [8] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [9] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [10] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [11] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [12] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [13] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [14] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [15] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [16] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [17] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [18] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [19] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [20] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [21] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [22] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [23] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [24] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [25] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [26] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [27] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [28] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [29] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [30] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [31] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [32] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [33] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [34] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [35] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [36] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [37] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [38] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [39] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> > [40] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [41] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [42] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [43] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [44] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [45] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [46] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [47] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [48] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [49] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [50] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [51] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [52] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [53] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [54] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [55] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [56] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [57] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [58] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [59] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [60] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [61] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [62] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
--
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
<http://www.sugarlabs.org>
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