[Sugar-devel] Abandoned or orphaned activities
James Cameron
quozl at laptop.org
Tue Jan 22 21:13:30 EST 2019
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 01:29:56PM -0500, Devin Ulibarri wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This was my experience:
>
> • I came into SugarLabs community at the time that this migration was
> beginning to happen.
> • I started a GH account because that is where I was told the software was
> being maintained.
> • I have continued to "go with the flow" and work via GH although I have come
> to understand more of the history and context of this matter.
>
> These are my thoughts and opinions:
>
> • I remember an argument that one reason to move to GH is "that is where all
> the developers are", but since our migration I have seen so many kids
> (usually GCI) set up new accounts with GH in order to contribute to SL (and
> to participate in GCI). This makes me think that many people are willing to
> join our development regardless of whatever tools/services we use, and
> whatever tool/services we use, if they are not yet setup with them, they
> are willing to get setup in order to join development.
> • Another argument seems to boil down to "we will be more productive using GH
> because we need not worry about the hassle of maintaining our own code
> hosting service". Is there evidence that we are more productive now than
> before? Not having the opportunity to learn/use the other systems, I would
> only be guessing.
Not much evidence, it's about the same. Like any tooling, you get
good at it with time. More productive now through the pull request
and issue integration, but less productive through loss of situational
awareness; changes are hidden in GitHub rather than being posted to
sugar-devel@, and new developers fixate on their favourite
repositories.
> • In theory, SL running its own version control, seems to me like it would be
> a) more fun for someone interested in this kind of work, b) a learning
> opportunity, and c) gives maximum freedom/flexibility to the ways in which
> we would like to do development.
git.sugarlabs.org hasn't needed any significant maintenance, and is
probably insecure now because of vulnerabilities that haven't been
patched.
bugs.sugarlabs.org has needed updates, but they have generally worked
well.
> • I would rather be using software that is licensed under a FLOSS license
> than a proprietary license. gnu.org came up with some criteria to evaluate
> "code hosting services" such as GH: [1]https://www.gnu.org/software/
> repo-criteria.html (which, btw, gets an "F", the lowest grade) The whole
> reason I am in this in the first place is because I believe the free/libre
> model of software to be the best for society and education.
Yes, I agree. Setting up an instance of GitLab could be done, but we
would need someone willing to do that and maintain it. Or we could
use GitLab directly as other projects have done.
>
> Devin
>
> On Tue, 2019-01-22 at 07:15 +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
>
> Walter,
>
> I will try. I am moving on Feb 3 to Palawan. I'll try to get to it then. My
> principal concern re GSOC is to define projects with manageable scope -
> many of the past projects ended undelivered.
>
> Tony
>
> On 1/21/19 3:10 PM, Walter Bender wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 3:44 AM James Cameron <[2]quozl at laptop.org>
> wrote:
>
> Fascinating, I never thought the move to GitHub was ever going to
> achieve all that. It was to enable a shutdown of the unmaintained
> gitorious instance at [3]git.sugarlabs.org. Which still hasn't
> happened
> because it is still useful, in turn because this community hasn't
> the
> time to do the necessary leg work to finish the move to GitHub.
>
> I would be curious what is still on Gitorious that hasn't been
> migrated.
>
> FWIW, my principle motivations for the move were (1) as James points
> out -- on less piece of infrastructure for us to maintain; and (2)
> GitHub for better or worse is much more familiar to and likely to be
> discovered by potential developers. I think GH has been a decent tool
> which requires minimal effort on our part. Not sure that the latter
> really amounts to too much.
>
> Re Tony's point about the ownership model, I don't see that anything we
> are doing suggests we don't want to continue to support individual
> contributions. I interpreted James's list not as a matter of ownership
> but rather a surfacing of what is actually happening re maintenance. In
> some sense, what is being articulated is the equivalent of the Fructose
> vs Honey nomenclature of the past where the core developers are saying:
> "These activities will be maintained. Cannot speak for everything
> else."
>
> That said, I think Tony makes a great point re thinking about the
> pedagogical implications of our choices, which have had little if any
> input from the learning side of the house. Would be great to get more
> input to help us in regard to what is most valuable to our users
> (whether they know it or not). [4]@Tony Anderson would be great if you
> could rework you thoughts about Python into a GSoC idea.
>
> regards.
>
> -walter
>
>
> In short, it has nothing to do with the tools, and everything to do
> with contributors.
>
> I'll continue to focus on the activities I've got on my list. That
> doesn't mean I won't help with the other activities, but I won't
> necessarily spend as much time with the others.
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:12:01AM +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
> > While it is marvelous to see some actual attention to the Sugar
> activities,
> > this approach is the direct opposite of the logic behind the move
> of the
> > activities to gitHub. This is a return to the G1G1 model in which
> individuals
> > develop, contribute and own activities. There can be no abandoned
> or orphaned
> > activities in a community support model.
> >
> > It was recognized by Walter and others that there were two
> factors which made
> > that ownership model unworkable. First, changes in Sugar software
> support such
> > as the move to GTK3 made common changes to all activities
> necessary and,
> > second, that many of the original contributors are no longer
> involved with
> > Sugar.
> >
> > GitHub was touted as the way in which Sugar Labs as a community
> would support
> > Sugar and its library of activities. However, in practice support
> for
> > activities has become increasingly limited to a small number of
> ones selected
> > for inclusion in the 13.2 series of builds.
> >
> > The Sugar activities library is made available to our users via
> ASLO.
> > Unfortunately, there are activities with new versions in gitHub
> which have not
> > been released to ASLO and thus are unknown to our users. There is
> even
> > confusion over which 'github'. It has to be kept clear that
> developers can use
> > any method they chose. What is controlled is the repository on
> gitHub. Any
> > changes outside of the Sugar Labs github are invisible until they
> are submitted
> > as a new version.
> >
> > Educational intent
> >
> > What I would like to see is a return to the founding philosophy
> of Sugar.
> > Everyone is welcome to contribute. When you get 10 lines of code
> working,
> > submit your activity. Sugar is designed to provide all the
> software tools
> > needed to develop activities in Sugar - no cross-development,
> containers, or
> > virtual environments. Instead of requesting new contributors to
> demonstrate
> > their technical proficiency by putting their name on the XO icon
> in the Home
> > View, identify some real examples of changes that would improve
> Sugar. There
> > are plenty available:
> >
> > Fix the icons on 'my settings' so they are visible instead of
> switching to
> > gnome by clicking on the big toe.
> > When you take a screenshot and switch to the Journal to give it a
> title, you
> > must use the Frame to return, not the Activity key.
> > The kids love the ability to customize their laptop with a
> background picture.
> > Unfortunately this often makes the icons in the Home View
> invisible.
> > Add Jupyter Notebook as a built-in capability of Sugar (possibly
> as a service
> > of Browse).
> > Help solve problems with a long list of activities (such as the
> lack of sound
> > in Block Party).
> > Find a way for Browse to support the css FlexBox.
> >
> > Stop using Pippy as a ceiling to our users learning to program in
> Python. They
> > can work up to 'Make your own Sugar Activities'. Start with the
> Hello World
> > activity. Explain GTK and its benefits. PyDebug provides recipes
> for many
> > common coding situations. Stop hiding the Terminal and Log
> activities - try to
> > encourage them to become favorites. Soon we could see a new
> generation of
> > user-programmers as we did in Uruguay.
> >
> > Along this theme, we should embrace the RPI and its compatriots
> as a way to
> > make embedded computing tangible. It would not be difficult to
> connect such a
> > device via the Ad Hoc network so that it could be used to
> transfer a program
> > written on an XO to the device and execute it with the user
> seeing the results
> > on LEDs (e.g. Sense Hat).
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > On 1/20/19 3:48 PM, Walter Bender wrote:
> >
> > I noticed Dimensions fell off the list. I will take that one
> on as I think
> > it is of real value.
> >
> > -walter
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 8:44 AM James Cameron <[1][5]
> quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks. So the list looks like;
> >
> > # Walter Bender
> >
> > * Music Blocks,
> > * Turtle Blocks JS,
> >
> > # Rahul Bothra
> >
> > * CowBulls,
> > * Flappy,
> > * Cedit,
> > * Polari,
> >
> > # James Cameron
> >
> > * Abacus,
> > * Browse (master),
> > * Browse (fedora 18 - webkit - v157.x),
> > * Calculator,
> > * Chart,
> > * Chat,
> > * Clock,
> > * Develop,
> > * Distance,
> > * Finance,
> > * Find Words,
> > * Fototoon,
> > * Fraction Bounce,
> > * Gears,
> > * GetBooks,
> > * Help,
> > * ImageViewer,
> > * Implode,
> > * Jukebox,
> > * Labyrinth,
> > * Letters,
> > * Log,
> > * Maze,
> > * Measure,
> > * Memorize,
> > * Moon (master),
> > * Moon (fedora 18 - gtk2 - v17.x),
> > * MusicKeyboard (master),
> > * MusicKeyboard (fedora 18 - csound - v8.x),
> > * Paint,
> > * Physics,
> > * Pippy,
> > * Poll,
> > * Portfolio,
> > * Read (master),
> > * Read (fedora 18 - webkit - v118.x),
> > * Record (master),
> > * Record (fedora 18 - gstreamer - v10x),
> > * SimpleEnglishWikipedia,
> > * Speak,
> > * StopWatch,
> > * Story,
> > * Terminal,
> > * TurtleBlocks,
> > * Words,
> > * Write,
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 09:04:50AM -0500, Walter Bender
> wrote:
> > > I am actively maintaining Music Blocks and Turtle
> Blocks JS.
> > > I just haven't had the bandwidth to do much beyond that
> of late. That
> > said, I
> > > am happy to kibbutz on any of the activities which I
> used to
> > maintain.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:11 AM Rahul Bothra <[1][2]
> > [6]rrbothra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > *
> > > I am maintaining CowBulls and Flappy.
> > >
> > > I can take up cedit and Polari
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:53 PM James Cameron <[2]
> [3]
> > [7]quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Once we had a list of abandoned activities,
> where the
> > maintainer is
> > > missing in action, not doing testing or
> releasing.
> > >
> > > Now, I propose the inverse; a list of
> activities with a
> > maintainer
> > > testing and releasing. It will be easier to
> maintain that
> > list.
> > >
> > > For myself, each of the Fructose activities,
> each of the
> > activities we
> > > ship on OLPC OS. I know Walter is looking
> after Music
> > Blocks. Lionel
> > > is looking after Sugarizer. Are there any
> other developers
> > who are
> > > maintainers?
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Cameron
> > > [3][4][8]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > [4][5][9]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [5][6][10]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> sugar-devel
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > [6][7][11]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [7][8][12]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> sugar-devel
> > >
> > > --
> > > Walter Bender
> > > Sugar Labs
> > > [8][9][13]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> > > [9]
> > >
> > > References:
> > >
> > > [1] mailto:[10][14]rrbothra at gmail.com
> > > [2] mailto:[11][15]quozl at laptop.org
> > > [3] [12][16]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > [4] mailto:[13][17]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [5] [14][18]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> sugar-devel
> > > [6] mailto:[15][19]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [7] [16][20]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
> sugar-devel
> > > [8] [17][21]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > > [9] [18][22]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> >
> > --
> > James Cameron
> > [19][23]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [20][24]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [21][25]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> > --
> > Walter Bender
> > Sugar Labs
> > [22][26]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [23][27]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [24][28]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >
> > References:
> >
> > [1] mailto:[29]quozl at laptop.org
> > [2] mailto:[30]rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [3] mailto:[31]quozl at laptop.org
> > [4] [32]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [5] mailto:[33]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [6] [34]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [7] mailto:[35]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [8] [36]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [9] [37]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [10] mailto:[38]rrbothra at gmail.com
> > [11] mailto:[39]quozl at laptop.org
> > [12] [40]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [13] mailto:[41]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [14] [42]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [15] mailto:[43]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [16] [44]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [17] [45]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [18] [46]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [19] [47]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [20] mailto:[48]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [21] [49]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [22] [50]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [23] mailto:[51]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [24] [52]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [53]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [54]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> --
> James Cameron
> [55]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [56]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [57]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> [58]http://www.sugarlabs.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [59]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [60]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [61]Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [62]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> References:
>
> [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html
> [2] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [3] http://git.sugarlabs.org/
> [4] mailto:tony_anderson at usa.net
> [5] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [6] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> [7] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [8] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [9] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [10] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [11] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [12] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [13] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [14] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> [15] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [16] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [17] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [18] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [19] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [20] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [21] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [22] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [23] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [24] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [25] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [26] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [27] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [28] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [29] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [30] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> [31] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [32] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [33] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [34] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [35] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [36] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [37] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [38] mailto:rrbothra at gmail.com
> [39] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [40] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [41] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [42] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [43] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [44] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [45] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [46] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [47] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [48] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [49] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [50] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [51] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [52] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [53] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [54] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [55] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [56] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [57] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [58] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [59] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [60] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [61] mailto:Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [62] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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