[Sugar-devel] Programming language

Walter Bender walter.bender at gmail.com
Mon Sep 24 14:10:36 EDT 2012
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On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think a comparison of the size of the Pootle files for 0.82 to 0.96 would
> make this clear. One obvious source is the pop-up menus which are
> ubiquitous. Open Browse and look at the portal - it is all text.

You have somewhat of a point as regards, for example Turtle Art, in
that recent versions include help strings and more hover-enabled
tooltips, both resulting in po file bloat. But this is not at the
expense of adding more text to the basic interface. Still iconic in
the main.

regards.

-walter

>
> Yours,
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> On 09/24/2012 11:55 AM, Gary Martin wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> On 24 Sep 2012, at 15:33, Tony Anderson<tony_anderson at usa.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> An important concept is 'language of instruction'. For example, in Nepal
>>> the language of instruction is Nepali; however, there are many native
>>> languages other than Nepali.
>>>
>>> In Haiti, the language of instruction is French. This is different than
>>> requiring a course in French. All of the textbooks are written in French.
>>>
>>> In Rwanda, until last year, the language of instruction was English. Now,
>>> it is Kinyarwanda until grade 4, and then English.
>>>
>>> The implication is that we could concentrate on supporting the language
>>> of instruction in the deployments: English, Spanish, and French. We should
>>> also help deployments with support for initial literacy in the student's
>>> mother tongue.
>>>
>>> One concern is that Sugar becomes more text-based with every release.
>>> Open Browse for example. Use of icons was a very practical way to help
>>> students learn to use the computer regardless of their mother tongue.
>>
>>
>> Sugar becoming more text-based? Could you be a little more specific as to
>> where in Sugar and Activities you're seeing this?
>>
>>  From a design point of view I try very hard to keep with, and extend the
>> icon focused Sugar designs e.g. the switch away from Activity toolbar tabs
>> allowed us to make Activities much more icon driven. Just the other day I
>> was working with humitos to provide him with a mockup for a simpler, more
>> friendly page load error message (less text and a visual).
>>
>> Regards,
>> --Gary
>>
>> [1]
>> http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/attachment/ticket/3500/Browse_unable_to_load_page.png
>>
>>> yours,
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>> On 09/24/2012 04:35 AM, sugar-devel-request at lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>>>>
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>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Sugar-devel digest..."
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>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>>     1. Re: [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 (Kevin Mark)
>>>>     2. Re: [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 (Kevin Mark)
>>>>     3. Re: [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 (James Cameron)
>>>>     4. Re: [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 (Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn)
>>>>     5. Re: [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 (Kevin Mark)
>>>>     6. Re: [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 (Hal Murray)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 22:17:25 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> From: Kevin Mark<kevin.mark at verizon.net>
>>>> To: Flavio Danesse<fdanesse at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org, James Cameron<quozl at laptop.org>,
>>>>         "S. Daniel Francis"<francis at sugarlabs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>         <1348463845.49692.YahooMailClassic at web84509.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>> Hola Flavio, I think you gave many?excellent? reasons for using Spanish,
>>>> which is what i was saying. So I agree. I was recalling something about the
>>>> OLPC project in Haiti. ?They have 2 'officlal' languages: Kreyol and French.
>>>> 99% of the country learns Kreyol but the upper class/government know French.
>>>> So the kids learn French for some reason in their early years along with
>>>> Kreyol and I was confused by this. Why learn something that they will use
>>>> very little and confuse learning while trying to learn it in a little used
>>>> language, French. That may not be 100% correct, so any correction welcome.
>>>> So I understand the idea of having kids try to learn Python and English at
>>>> the same time as being difficult and not always useful.-K
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>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 22:24:25 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> From: Kevin Mark<kevin.mark at verizon.net>
>>>> To: Flavio Danesse<fdanesse at gmail.com>, Gonzalo Odiard
>>>>         <gonzalo at laptop.org>
>>>> Cc: sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org, James Cameron<quozl at laptop.org>,
>>>>         "S. Daniel Francis"<francis at sugarlabs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>         <1348464265.12572.YahooMailClassic at web84510.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 9/24/12, Gonzalo Odiard<gonzalo at laptop.org>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Gonzalo Odiard<gonzalo at laptop.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
>>>> To: "Flavio Danesse"<fdanesse at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: "Kevin Mark"<kevin.mark at verizon.net>,
>>>> sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org, "James Cameron"<quozl at laptop.org>, "S.
>>>> Daniel Francis"<francis at sugarlabs.org>
>>>> Date: Monday, September 24, 2012, 1:08 AM
>>>>
>>>> Flavio,Estoy de acuerdo que para ense?ar programaci?n, agregar la
>>>> problem?tica de comprender otro idioma a la de comprender el lenguaje de
>>>> programaci?n en si, no tiene demasiado sentido.Lo que si creo que tiene
>>>> sentido, y esto tu y yo lo hemos hablado varias veces, pero como has dado tu
>>>> punto de vista, voy a dar el mio, es que usemos un lenguaje comun para
>>>> tratar de compartir esfuerzos y no multiplicar el trabajo. Imaginate lo que
>>>> pasar?a si la gente de Nepal, de Rwanda, latino america, y ahora las islas
>>>> Fiji, cada uno tuviera que hacer su reproductor de videos y audio, su
>>>> actividad para sacar fotos, etc.
>>>> El costo en esfuerzo y tiempo que se invierte es alt?simo. En la
>>>> pr?ctica es mas alto del que podemos afrontar como comunidad, porque aun no
>>>> hemos logrado todo lo que nos proponemos.Entonces, esta barbaro usar los
>>>> lenguajes locales para ense?ar y aprender, algunos miembros de esas
>>>> comunidades y algunos proyectos creceran hasta poder compartirse y alli es
>>>> mejor contar con un idioma comun. Hoy es el ingles, en cien a?os, veremos.
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to
>>>> learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming language,
>>>> does not have too much sense.
>>>> But have sense (and we talked about this a few times, but you have your
>>>> point, and I have my point too) use a common language to share efforts and
>>>> avoid multiply the job. Imagine if people from Nepal, Rwanda, Latin America,
>>>> and now Fiji, need create his own video player, record activity, etc.?
>>>> The cost in time and effort is too high. In fact, is higher than the
>>>> effort we can do as a community, because we haven't reach all what we
>>>> want.Then, is ok use local?language to teach and learn, some of the
>>>> community members and some projects will grow up until be shared and then is
>>>> better use a common language. Today is english, in 100 years, will see.
>>>> ???Gonzalo
>>>>
>>>> I think a certain?comparison?comes to mind from learning about
>>>> Debian-edu/OLPC. There are tools you use to learn learing and learn skills
>>>> and tools you use to do work. To learn programming, you should use what is
>>>> easiest and useful to do it (like python and Spanish comments), but when you
>>>> are going to?collaborate?with many non-English people, then you turn to the
>>>> common language, English.
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>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:40:13 +1000
>>>> From: James Cameron<quozl at laptop.org>
>>>> To: sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
>>>> Message-ID:<20120924054013.GN23922 at us.netrek.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 02:08:03AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to
>>>>> learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming
>>>>> language, does not have too much sense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't read what Flavio said, but I agree that having to learn a
>>>> foreign language before learning programming does increase the cost of
>>>> learning considerably, to the point that the learning may not occur.
>>>>
>>>> This is one of the reasons why some learning areas are difficult.  But
>>>> knowledge of the implementation language can assist greatly.
>>>>
>>>> Know Latin, can learn medicine terminology more quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Know Italian, can learn opera or music terminology more quickly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>
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-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
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