[Sugar-devel] [IAEP] GPA ain't the world (was: [Sugar-news] Sugar Digest 2009-08-11)

[Tomeu Vizoso]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 17:12, David Van Assche<dvanassche at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, I think what's happening here is a breakdown in communication. When I
> used the term obvious, I was talking about Christoph's email... I was
> stating that perhaps the message, as I understood it, was that we need more
> data from the field... and that _the message_ was not obvious enough in the
> email. I never meant that the feedback was not obvious enough... or that
> developers were not doing enough to keep us informed.

Ok, I'm sorry about that. The thread was about feedback from GPA not
being relevant for the 99.99% of Sugar users, in case that helps
explain my reply.

> I really hope this makes sense. I'm a little concerned that I have to be so
> careful about wording. I sort of get the feeling that should one make any
> type of constructive criticism, this is immediately construed as a threat,
> and the person writing the criticism is forced to walk on egg shells.
>
> I understand that talking about what can be done better, or what should have
> been done that wasnt, etc causes very emotional responses because of the
> time people have given to the project, but should we really just shut up
> about this stuff? Or is there value to hearing people's opinions on how
> things could be improved?

I think you are right in that criticism is very important and I didn't
welcomed it properly, hope to improve on this.

> And on that note, I'd like to hear how I can improve gathering feedback for
> our Autonomous region, based on methods currently in place elsewhere. What
> I'm asking for is links to documentation that show how this has been done
> till now in South America, Nepal and Asia, Africa, Europe. I've looked
> around, but there is not too much information on the web. My idea is to try
> and automate this as much as possible by creating a set of scripts, or
> plugins that can measure stats and then send these (probably via xmpp)
>
> Someone mentioned munin, but this doesn't really give user statistics much
> though... its more of a network tool for servers for measuring performance,
> resource usage, and graphing these. What I am talking about is digitising
> the current manual feedback that is happening elsewhere (how many users
> running which apps, lesson plans being used, languages, how many computers
> requiring repairs, general problems people are running into, and generally
> people's feelings on sugar usage, maybe even surveys)

I would start by listing the kind of parameters for which we could use
quantitative data, then think about how we could gather it.

I remember an interesting thread in olpc-sur about assessment of the
plan ceibal, may be interesting to ask there for opinions.

Regards,

Tomeu

> kind regards,
> David Van Assche
>
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu at sugarlabs.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 20:17, David Van Assche<dvanassche at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying... all I said was "we
>> > need
>> > more data from the field"
>>
>> Well, I also understood that you said that it wasn't obvious enough.
>> Which surprised me after all the noise lately about getting feedback.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm seeing feedback coming right now and also efforts to
>> organize feedback gathering. So, let's do it!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tomeu
>>
>> > I am in no way blaming anyone for not getting feedback, on the contrary,
>> > I
>> > am frustrated that the calls for feediback are not being heard enoguh,
>> > and I
>> > am well aware of people's efforts to try and get this feedback. What I
>> > am
>> > saying is that the feedback is not coming through.... does this make
>> > sense?
>> > Or are you saying the feedback is getting through and I'm just not
>> > seeing
>> > it?
>> >
>> > regards,
>> > David
>> >
>> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu at sugarlabs.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 15:51, David Van Assche<dvanassche at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Hmmmm... I have to agree with Christoph here. I didn't really see it
>> >> > as
>> >> > being dramatic at all, but quite factual in fact. The western small
>> >> > deployments really don't give us any useful stats on what is
>> >> > happening
>> >> > on a
>> >> > larger scale in the third world.
>> >>
>> >> Ok, but will give some other interesting information, or not at all?
>> >>
>> >> > And its important to acknowledge the
>> >> > differences between these, which Christoph listed quite concretely.
>> >>
>> >> And isn't this stating the obvious?
>> >>
>> >> > I think
>> >> > what may not have come across obviously enough was that we need way
>> >> > more
>> >> > data from the field, in places where Sugar is being used on a large
>> >> > scale,
>> >> > and this data is just not getting to us. I for one, would love to
>> >> > have
>> >> > some
>> >> > cold hard facts about Sugar as used in South America and Africa.
>> >>
>> >> I'm quite appalled by this, you don't read the mailing lists where we
>> >> make regular calls for feedback? Short from taking a plane and
>> >> visiting school by school, I don't see what else I can do to get that
>> >> feedback.
>> >>
>> >> You understand Spanish, search the olpc-sur mailing list for posts by
>> >> Walter and me and tell here again if we don't ask for feedback.
>> >>
>> >> It's really frustrating that we are here spending our savings and time
>> >> on this project, and not only the people deploying our software don't
>> >> want to talk to us despite our requests, but other people still think
>> >> we don't want to know about them.
>> >>
>> >> Frustratedly yours,
>> >>
>> >> Tomeu
>> >>
>> >> > kind Regards,
>> >> > David Van Assche
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:21 PM, David Farning
>> >> > <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 5:42 AM, Christoph
>> >> >> Derndorfer<e0425826 at student.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>> >> >> > Sean DALY schrieb:
>> >> >> >> IMHO, close study of small deployments makes them incredibly
>> >> >> >> useful
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> all teachers and Learners. The observations and take-aways need
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> be
>> >> >> >> triaged of course, starting with what can/should be done by Sugar
>> >> >> >> Labs, but I am convinced many learnings will benefit large
>> >> >> >> deployments. Until reliable means of sharing experiences and
>> >> >> >> feedback
>> >> >> >> (polls, questionnaires, council of deployers, etc.) can be put in
>> >> >> >> place, microscopic study of a classroom using Sugar is well worth
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> effort, in particular for revealing blockers.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > I'm not sure I really agree with this statement...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Christoph please keep the dramatic headlines to olpcnews.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the above paragraph, Walter notes that many lessons can be
>> >> >> learned
>> >> >> from controlled environments which can then be applied to larger
>> >> >> scaled, less controlled environments.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please note, this does not _exclude_ anyone from providing feedback
>> >> >> from large scale deployments.  Nor does it _prevent_ anyone from
>> >> >> creating small scale deployments anywhere in the world.  _all_ it
>> >> >> states is that it is often cost effective to start small and grow as
>> >> >> lessons have been learned.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And yes, Christoph I _am_ holding your writing to a higher standard.
>> >> >> Several times, you have described yourself as the voice of the
>> >> >> project.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> david
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Extrapolating the data and drawing conclusions based on
>> >> >> > observations
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > a trial that represents less than 0,01% of all current Sugar
>> >> >> > installations is a risky endeavor at best and a serious mistake at
>> >> >> > worst. Even more so when the environment between the trial (in
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > case
>> >> >> > GPA) and the global deployments really couldn't be more different
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > just about every way imaginable (SoaS vs. XO, summer classes vs.
>> >> >> > regular
>> >> >> > year-long classes, Boston connectivity vs. Rwanda connectivity, 25
>> >> >> > installations in a school vs. 1000 installations in a school, US
>> >> >> > power
>> >> >> > infrastructure vs. Nepali power infrastructure, having a team
>> >> >> > consisting
>> >> >> > of Walter / Greg / Caroline supporting the efforts vs. being lucky
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > maybe have a single person who has used a computer before, 25
>> >> >> > pupils
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > a classroom vs. 80 pupils in a classroom, users that were raised
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > urban North America vs. users who don't have electricity at home,
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > I
>> >> >> > could go on...).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes, some of the findings at GPA will indeed be of a broad and
>> >> >> > general
>> >> >> > nature and subsequent actions will benefit all Sugar users. Yes,
>> >> >> > projects like in Alabama, Austria, the UK and similar places will
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > able to learn many things from the GPA pilot.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > But let's not forget that the current million Sugar users and (if
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > reports are to be believed) also the next million Sugar users are
>> >> >> > much
>> >> >> > more likely to be found in Ancash, Kigali or Sichuan rather than
>> >> >> > Boston,
>> >> >> > London or Vienna. And I doubt that you'll find too many schools in
>> >> >> > those
>> >> >> > places that have a profile similar to GPA [1].
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Just my 2 Nepali Rupees,
>> >> >> > Christoph
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > [1] "The Gardner Pilot Academy is the flagship full-service
>> >> >> > community
>> >> >> > school within the Boston Public Schools (BPS). The school's vision
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > educate the minds and develop the characters of all students in
>> >> >> > partnership with families and community. To achieve this GPA
>> >> >> > provides
>> >> >> > high quality teaching along with a range of social, emotional and
>> >> >> > enrichment programs delivered by means of partnerships with an
>> >> >> > array
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > community organizations and individuals. Over the past twelve
>> >> >> > years,
>> >> >> > GPA
>> >> >> > has developed strong associations with four universities, several
>> >> >> > health
>> >> >> > and mental health agencies, the YMCA, and various organizations
>> >> >> > teaching
>> >> >> > visual and performing arts. As one of just 20 pilot schools in the
>> >> >> > BPS,
>> >> >> > GPA is exempt from district mandates. Therefore, GPA has autonomy
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > areas of budget and personnel, along with the freedom to implement
>> >> >> > innovative curricula, assessments, and interventions."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Gardner_Pilot_Academy#Gardner_Pilot_Academy)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Christoph Derndorfer
>> >> >> > co-editor, olpcnews
>> >> >> > url: www.olpcnews.com
>> >> >> > e-mail: christoph at olpcnews.com
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> >> >> > IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> >> >> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> > Stephen Leacock  - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue
>> >> > that I
>> >> > shall some day die, which is not so."
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> >> > IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Mike Ditka  - "If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have
>> > given
>> > us arms."
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
>> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
>> Farning
>
>
>
> --
>
> Samuel Goldwyn  - "I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but
> I am never wrong."



-- 
«Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
Farning