[sugar] Education?

[Guido van Rossum]

Thanks Alan. I'm quite satisfied with this response and I agree with
the priorities!

On 3/9/07, Alan Kay <alan.kay at squeakland.org> wrote:
>
>  Guido knows that I've been advocating that the Python folks should do Etoys
> or a very Etoys like environment in Python (and that the rest of the OLPC be
> given an objectification and media and scripting integration that is Etoys
> like).
>
>  However, there are simply zillions of things left to be done everywhere for
> OLPC so the first round of SW on the XO will be more of a gathering of
> "suggestive" features and abilities (of which Etoys is just one). That seems
> fine to me.
>
>  Viewpoints Research (our little non-profit) doesn't have any "ego or
> identity" staked around whether the children's authoring environment is
> Python based or Squeak based. I have said many times that, if the general
> integrative base of XO is to be Python, then the Etoys-like authoring should
> be based in Python also.
>
>  However, I will personally fight to the death to make sure that there is a
> children's authoring environment that allows even young children to do
> simulation style programming with very rich media objects.
>
>  For now, that is Etoys. It could be a suitable object-oriented Logo with
> media objects (this is essentially what Etoys is). It could be some better
> design (let's do one). The base could be Javascript (if implemented on top
> of an integrated environment of sufficient power), Python (ditto), Ruby
> (ditto), etc. Whatever it is, it has to be above high thresholds, not a hack
> or a gesture.
>
>  Besides the programming the children use to learn important ideas in math
> and science, they also need to be able to see how their own computer world
> is structured by being able to "pop the hood" on practically everything they
> use. Perhaps it is OK for high school children to see the current code (but
> I don't think so). I think there needs to be a wrapping on the entire set of
> facilities that uses the same conventions that 9 year olds do their own
> programming in. Again, if it is to be Python, then it needs to be crafted a
> bit for younger children. E.g. Etoys allows easy unlimited parallel tasking,
> and this is very important for children's programming. Etc.
>
>  There are many good things that can be done here. We live in a computing
> world in which there is a tremendous amount of identification between many
> programmers and the tools they use -- so strong that it resembles religious
> fervor. From my view, ALL of the system have such flaws that we are better
> off being critical of all of them and try to use the best ideas from
> everywhere.
>
>  If "Children First!" is really the goal here, then we must spend most of
> our energies trying to make the childrens' environments more conducive to
> creative learning of powerful ideas.
>
>  Cheers,
>
>  Alan
>
>
>  At 02:52 AM 3/9/2007, MBurns wrote:
>
> On 3/8/07, no body <esorcus at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Isn't the mere presence of eToys on the XO a complete anathema to the
>  sugar philosophy?
>
>  As the XO is about education and etoys is the only software on the OLPC
> that
>  actually has any relation to education the above is a somewhat confusing
>  statement. But maybe I misunderstood and the XO is really about Python...
>  I think the quote is referencing something else (though I may
> misunderstand).
>
>  The eToys environment is a self-contained world of development. One
>  that exists within the Sguar world of development. Programs, projects,
>  source code and objects written in that eToys world do not exist
>  outside in the Sugar world. You can write a sugar Activity or an eToys
>  bundle, and, as we have seen in the gaming realm, they can often
>  accomplish the same end goal.
>
>  Now this may or may not be an issue to people(OLPC devs, students,
>  teacers), they may or may not care, but it is an interesting 'world
>  inside a world' for this transparent learning machine we are
>  developing.
>
>  --
>  Michael Burns * Security Student
>  NET * Oregon State University
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-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)