[SoaS] Governance & Trademark in the Wiki

[Caroline Meeks]

Hi Peter,
I can agree with a lot of what you say here.

On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Caroline,
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Caroline Meeks <solutiongrove at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Sean,
> >
> > What Sebastian means by this is that the Checksum must match.
> > That means.
>
> I think your missing the point and understanding of SoaS. Also don't
> speak for Sebastian, he does have the ability to speak for himself so
> he can do so for himself!
>

Your right. I should say, what Sebastian told me when we spoke was....

>
> > you can't change the default language
> > you can't change what activities are in it or even which are in the
> favorite
> > ring
> > you can't add drivers
> > you can't add an eBook
> > you can't patch a known bug even with an accepted patch
>
> You can add all of these and what ever else you like. But if you wish
> to you can't call it SoaS. Running as a standard live cd its static
> but as a properly configured 'stick' it has a writeable home directory
> as which means the user can add what ever they like. As the user
> settings for activities, eBooks, and the ring are stored in the home
> directory they can all be changed.
>

that is not what Sebastian told me in a lengthy conversation. I agree that
its what you mean and I think a lot of other people may agree with your
thinking. I think pinning down exactly what is meant is extremely important
to this discussion.

>
> > Also since Sugar Labs does not have a Trademark on Sugar on a Stick, only
> on
> > Sugar, I'm not sure what you are going to ask people who want to do these
> > very reasonable things to call it?  I think you have to insist they don't
> > use the word Sugar at all.
>
> Well, actually the word sugar isn't able to be trademarked as its a
> generic word in common use your wrong there. As for the use of sugar
> on a stick I think you are being in-genuine and trying to hop on the
> cart to take advantage of it. But if you want to talk about trademarks
> your making use of the SugarLabs trademarks and logos and I'm sure
> they do have the rights to them so if you want to get into discussions
> about trademarks why don't you remove those from your site to start
> with? Because people might start to believe your not actually
> associated with and endorsed by SugarLabs possibly and that might
> impact your gravy train?
>

The gravy train is pretty thin right now.  I'm running a pilot for free.
Providing hosting for schools.sugarlabs.org and jabber.sugarlabs.org (with
the support of our hosting provider Zill.net, thanks Patrick!) writing grant
application, working on marketing etc.  and yes I agree it might well impact
that.

Why don't I remove the trademarks from the site?  Well first because I asked
Walter, Mike Lee and Sean before I put them up.
 and it was in compliance with the trademark usage at the time
 and I'm talking to SLOBS about licensing etc.

Second I think the site moves ahead our joint interests, include making the
gravy train thicker for all. This includes sharing revenues with Sugar Labs
and making us more attractive for grants, and increasing our audience in an
important sector, parents who spend money on technology for their children.


> > I do see that maybe we don't want the wild west with anyone doing
> anything,
> > but I'm concerned that we are going to force the very thing we are trying
> to
> > prevent by this level of control, the splitting of the brand and
> dispersion
> > of the teachers and parents who want to use and improve on Sugar into
> > different silos.
>
> Brand is everything. Look at the way Fedora uses and enforces their
> brand. Companies use their product but its not allowed to be called
> Fedora. They can use the secondary Fedora Remix brand logos but not
> the primary ones. See Linpus for example (http://www.linpus.com/). It
> the Linux that ships on the Acer Aspire Ones for example. You can
> install Fedora and any other package you like.
>
> You talk about splitting the brand.... you are the one splitting the
> brand. What you are doing is taking a product and modifying it. What
> your are doing is something like taking a piece of Tupperware and
> modifying it and still calling it Tupperware. They would sue your
> butt.
>

Sounds like we need to be really clear about what is and isn't modification.
Sebastian was clear on his definition. If the checksum is different its
modified.

>
> > I want to promote Sugar in the geekiest 5% of the PTO (Parent, Teachers
> > Organization) and bring those people together under the Sugar Labs
> umbrella.
> >  But to do that we have to give them Sugar with the stuff they want. I
> don't
> > think many of even that 5% care much about Ubuntu vs Fedora.
> > I think a lot of people will want a Sugar on a Stick that is "customized"
> > for:
>
> I don't see that we're stopping you from promoting sugar, just asking
> you to use your own name. Just create a new name for your solution as
> the "geekiest 5% of the PTO (Parent, Teachers Organization)" will be
> able to work out that what your offering is a supported sugar
> environment, after all to use your term they are "geeks".
>

 You aren't stopping me. - True.  I'm pretty stubborn and hard to stop. :)

We are asking me to use a different name. This time I think its your turn to
speak for yourself and not for the community.  You seem to be asking me to
use a different name and let people figure out its Sugar. Based on what
Sebastian told me he seems to want them not to figure out its Sugar because
it might result in support requests.  What I think I heard when I talked to
Sean was he wants it to be what he see's as Sugar and have the branding done
in a consistent and positive manner.


> > Their native language, especially if its not the dominant language where
> > they live
> > the age of their kids
> > has books they like
> > actually works on their hardware (remember the official release doesn't
> > include any driver that isn't in the Fedora release)
>
> So your solution offers native languages? My understanding of your



> previous emails is that your only changes to the SOAS spin is that you
> change any servers to point to your own. So what's that got to do with
> native languages. The SugarLabs SOAS already offers all the current
> supported languages. The changes will remain with a properly
> configured stick, just like I mentioned above so please stop spreading
> FUD about the official SOAS release.
>

Yes all the languages are there its just English by default.  I believe that
it would be attractive to people to have their language as the default and
some books preloaded. I believe that that might increase the likelihood of
someone downloading and trying it.  I haven't done it yet, but I might and I
certainly think its a good idea for other people to do it.



> > I want these people to know they are using Sugar on a Stick and tell
> people
> > about Sugar on a Stick, not some other brand name.  I want them to be the
> > ambassadors that bring Sugar on a Stick to their schools.
>
> Yes, you want them to tell all the other people about your sugar on a
> stick dot com so you can make money out it. Don't get me wrong. I'm
>

I certainly wouldn't mind! Although I truely want it in schools more then I
want the money.  You can believe that or not of course. However, I'm now
working nearly full time on Sugar on a Stick and I feel like I'm making good
progress.  Furthermore I feel like WE are making great progress. I want to
keep working on it. That means I have to find a way to make money. I can
apply for grants and be a direct drain on Sugar Labs or I can try to get
parents who spend money on technology for their kids (like buying them their
own netbooks!) to spend some on collaboration and backup for Sugar. If it
works I get to keep working on Sugar! I get to goto conferences and talk
about Sugar! I get to pay developers and trainers to further Sugar.  I get
to share the money with Sugar Labs and support its work around the world. I
get to inspire competitors who bring the idea around the globe. Sounds like
fun to me. I do want it to work. And as we discussed earlier, I'm stubborn.



> not against people making money. I like to do so myself :-) Why can't
> you make your own successful brand like Linpus has by using the Fedora
>

Because I don't actually want a successful brand. I want Sugar to be
successful.  I want people to read sugaronastick.com download Sugar and use
it without paying for the backup service. I believe that there are some
people who will goto a wiki and download and others who will be far more
likely to try it from a stie that looks more commercial.  I think the
community needs both to break the 2% barrier.

I want there people, even those who never pay for anything, which will be
the majority,  to goto their school and tell them about Sugar. I want people
to say to their schools you don't need to buy services from these people, I
can set up an XS for you for free!  Then the school goes, wow, look at the
thousands of dollars this guy is saving us, this is really valuable.

I actually do think being able to have your kids in "the neighborhood" with
their cousins in another state or country is pretty cool and worth paying
for. I think it certainly makes Sugar way way cooler then just using it by
yourself.

Lots of people will just use Sugar and I want them to know that is what they
are doing and tell all their friends. I want them to Blog about Sugar not
about my brand.  I want them to Blog about how much they can do for free and
how their schools should use it for free!  I don't want them talking about
some other brand.

I also think its valuable for Sugar services to have a value in the
marketplace. People value what they pay for. They love to get things at a
discount, to get a great deal. If its always free then you can't get a
discount!  By putting the XS services up at a price, everyone who gives it
away/sets it up for free are now giving something people can place a value
on. (like me btw, we are hosting 2 schools right now and I've promised a
couple of others if they have any issues setting up the XS I'll do hosting)
  The world of school funding is very convoluted. There are grant
applications where we have to make budgets and many of the Grantors want to
see the project having a budget bigger then the piece they are funding.
 There are also grants that schools can get that will pay for things like
hosting but won't pay for a server and someone to set up an XS. and vica
versa, but having a source of for-fee hosting doesn't keep anyone from
setting up their own XS.

I think it can all be done in a way that builds the Sugar brand and
convinces Schools and Countries to stop spending millions of dollars on
software that does less and is not as good for learning.  And I think I can
make a paycheck. And I think I can make money that will help pay for
marketing and conferences and such for Sugar Labs.

So I'm here to work together to build the Sugar Labs brand, to increase the
use of Sugar for free and to make a paycheck and I want to stay deeply
involved in the Sugar community building an educator community that develops
and shares best practices.  And I want it all under the Sugar Labs brand.

We've lost too many good people to them having to go out and get real jobs;
Marco, Greg Smith. I don't want to have to leave for economic reasons.




product without in-genuinely using the names that are already in use
> by SugarLabs. Why don't you go and read the Fedora Trademarks [1].
> SugarLabs has used the Fedora processes for other things like the
> Feature Process and I personally think those trademark guidelines are
> what we should adopt.
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>
> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
>
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Sean DALY <sdaly.be at gmail.com>
> > Date: Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [SoaS] Governance & Trademark in the Wiki
> > To: Sebastian Dziallas <sdz at sugarlabs.org>
> > Cc: SoaS <soas at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> >
> >
> > I support these changes.
> >
> > Thanks Sebastian.
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Sebastian Dziallas <sebastian at when.com>
> > wrote:
> >> From:
> >>
> >>
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Sugar_Labs/Governance/Trademark#Sugar_on_a_Stick_Guidelines
> >>
> >> --Sebastian
> >>
> >> ------
> >>
> >> I am herewith proposing the following changes to the section 5a. This
> >> has been derived from Fedora's trademark guidelines [1] and might need
> >> to be adjusted to cover more cases, as listed in those guidelines. By
> >> referring to Sugar on a Stick, the following draft means the project
> >> located [2] and hosted [3] here.
> >>
> >> - You *may* use the term "Sugar on a Stick" whenever referring to the
> >> official Sugar on a Stick product and its releases, as well as when
> >> distributing unmodified copies of it.
> >> -- However, this usage *must not* imply any endorsement by Sugar Labs or
> >> the Sugar on a Stick project, unless this is case and an appropriate
> >> agreement has been reached.
> >>
> >> - You *may* modify Sugar on a Stick and create remixes of it.
> >> -- However, when distributing or selling this modified version, you
> >> *must not* call it Sugar on a Stick.
> >> -- When not exposing the resulting product to the public, you *may*
> >> still call it Sugar on a Stick, though. A deployment might adjust Sugar
> >> on a Stick for its needs and still say it deployed Sugar on a Stick, as
> >> long as the modified version is not distributed publicly.
> >>
> >> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
> >> [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
> >> [3] http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/soas
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> SoaS mailing list
> >> SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > SoaS mailing list
> > SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Caroline Meeks
> > Solution Grove
> > Caroline at SolutionGrove.com
> >
> > 617-500-3488 - Office
> > 505-213-3268 - Fax
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > SoaS mailing list
> > SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
> >
> >
>



-- 
Caroline Meeks
Solution Grove
Caroline at SolutionGrove.com

617-500-3488 - Office
505-213-3268 - Fax
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