[Marketing] [SoaS] Governance & Trademark in the Wiki

Sean DALY sdaly.be at gmail.com
Mon Oct 19 08:57:18 EDT 2009


For the moment, nobody is making any money and in fact some of us are
donating lots of it :-)

The discussion is ultimately about how best to spread the word about
Sugar, and how best to assure competent local deployment support for

It's not the case that Sugar on a Stick requires the latest and
greatest tech, or cannot boot older BIOS PCs. The CD Boot Helper was
created for that. Every teacher I have spoken with becomes more
interested when they learn that older PCs can run Sugar.

Sugar on a Stick also fits onto small (1 Gb) USB sticks and memory
cards whose unit price in quantity continues to fall. I don't know
about the USA, but in Europe where I live, retailers don't even bother
stocking that size anymore since the profit margin is so low. But that
wouldn't stop us (with a donor's help) from loading a few thousand
low-capacity sticks for distribution, would it? There are plenty of
suppliers running under capacity at the moment.

Sugar is not "just" for the third world; it is universally appealing
to children. Sugar's promise is a consistent learning environment for
a child, no matter what computing platform.


P.S. as marketing list moderator, I added your address to the auto-accept list.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 2:32 PM, DancesWithCars
<danceswithcars at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have to say I'm disappointed in the
> commercialization and fights over money.
> I volunteer for an open source project and it
> is difficult enough keeping up with all the emails,
> (and if I'm on the marketing list and this bounces,
> then will just ignore most of those sales/marketing
> threads unless interesting), but one of the things
> I mentioned in  the last public meeting notes
> involves broadening the base on other
> platforms
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Oversight_Board/Meeting_Minutes-2009-10-16
> For governance, it is very important to know
> if CONFLICT OF INTEREST is in play
> with board members and outside affiliations.
> After posting some comments on the meeting,
> I was recently thinking on product based users
> groups, like say a Sun or old DEC users groups,
> all based off of an affinity with a companies
> "product", and wondering how open source
> fits in with that.  We have some templates
> for how that is done in the open source
> community, fedora/ red hat being one,
> but some people on SLOBs and probably
> the board are making money somehow
> in this while many / most are not,
> so it would help to be clear.
> As far as marketing, the color scheme
> may be the best way to do it,
> reserve the Red variety name for
> RedHat/ Fedora (Strawberry, CherrySoaS,
> etc).  Blueberry for IBM/ aka big blue
> and send my royalties for naming
> Aspartamine / Saccarhine (spelling?)
> for M$ naming schemes.
> Apple Mac can be sweet Cat Names if
> on Mac OS X (tm), or which ever.
> Not sure which cats eat sugary stuff
> instead of just carnivores...
> Bears are more known for eating
> honey, at least Pooh ;-/
> And I disagree that a stick has to
> have persistent /home solutions,
> nice but not required.
> Or spec it out what it requires
> to have an officially sanctioned
> SoaS branded [or supported] variety,
> and have  a testing scheme (passes all n
> tests, then we can call it an official SoaS),
> but for now I will continue to
> call working with Sugar on LiveCD
> or on USB (I don't want to create
> USB sticks, the process is a little difficult
> for newbies/ non techies, and someone could just
> sell SoaS sticks on SoaS.com or
> SugarOnAStick.com but use the
> common open source (like CentOS,
> or FSF/ GPL licencing traditions of
> copying + shipping and handling charges
> as the limit, and if they want to resell
> and put a $ %  back into the SL.org
> foundation/ 501c3 great,
> (and/or bundle an additional donation to the
> upstream sugar labs) and can market that they
> contribute back, but fighting over
> money when we are working on poverty
> where the annual per capita incomes
> can be about the price of a high capacity USB
> memory device and kids are starving and dying
> world wide, is exploitive, IMO
> though commonly done to poor
> people and in the name of good intentions,
> or somesuch.
> That is what makes it sickening to fight
> over money here in the 1st world
> working on projects for the 3rd world,
> when SoaS USB doesn't even boot but
> on the newest of hardware that boots
> from USB.  Rare for me to have
> something boot from USB in the USA.
> Technical assumptions that we have
> the latest tech do not hold when
> working in poverty or scrounging
> for an extra machine to install
> something to test for piloting...
> But it's still in development,
> and by the time everything is worked
> out the tide of USB boatable BIOS
> machines may migrate out
> as donations to the rest of the
> non tech digital divide...
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 6:57 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu at sugarlabs.org> wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:47, Sean DALY <sdaly.be at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> There are several intertwined issues here and I would like to make my
>>> position clear (or clearer ;-) on several points.
>>> 1. "Sugar on a Stick" is indeed a brand, and the Marketing Team has
>>> been building it as a brand. It has "brand equity": value, a topic I
>>> will elaborate on shortly in a separate post. We are building the
>>> brand because it is a key part of the Sugar Labs strategy to make
>>> Sugar known as an available alternative on classroom computers
>>> (whatever they are). As a Sugar Labs brand, I have advocated for
>>> months that it be trademarked.
>>> 2. Branding only works if the underlying value proposition - the
>>> product, goods, or services - is of interest and value to the target
>>> market. In non-marketing jargon, that means the product itself must be
>>> good for the brand to grow, and to achieve a breakout of quick growth
>>> (say 2 years instead of 10), the product must be great.
>>> 3. "Sugar on a Stick" can only grow as a brand if we carefully choose
>>> how it is presented and promoted and perceived. Anyone wishing to
>>> modify Sugar on a Stick should either do so and call it something
>>> else, or consult with us so their contribution can be better
>>> integrated into the project, and we can be sure confusion will be
>>> avoided, and we can even leverage their initiative in our marketing.
>> Btw, have we considered already allowing derivatives of SoaS be called
>> SoaS remix or so like Fedora does?
>> Regards,
>> Tomeu
>>> Unfortunately, sugaronastick.com is damaging the brand, because it
>>> creates confusion. Confusion is deadly to any growing brand. Caroline,
>>> we can try to fit what you're doing with that site into the Sugar Labs
>>> strategy, but opening that site without consulting the community may
>>> have compromised that. Many of us have our work on that site, yet we
>>> have no say in it, and that's not OK. Of course, there would be no
>>> issue if the version and site were named differently.
>>> 4. As Martin Dengler has passionately and eloquently pointed out, at
>>> this time no one is in a position to support Sugar on a Stick in a way
>>> that scales. My view is that a for-profit ecosystem of integrators
>>> working for schools needs to be developed. However, it's a wide-open
>>> question at this point whether and how this should be done. Which is
>>> why Sugar on a Stick's main role now and in at least the year to come
>>> is not as a deployable solution for schools, but the best way of
>>> spreading the word to teachers that an alternative exists. In this
>>> light, I believe it is premature to present SoaS as school-ready. And,
>>> we cannot encourage anyone to call any liveUSB Sugar implementation
>>> "Sugar on a Stick", because unofficial versions will not be
>>> supportable, and the result will be damage to the brand.
>>> 5. Everyone needs to make a living, and all of us are contributing our
>>> valuable time, and many of us funds, to get Sugar off the ground. In
>>> my view, a fair approach would be for expenses to be tallied and
>>> reimbursed at such a time as we have sufficient funding to do so. I
>>> certainly won't begrudge you the time, money and resources you are
>>> putting into Sugar Labs, but I'm afraid there is a lack of clarity
>>> between what you're doing for Sugar Labs and what you want to do for
>>> profit. Imagine for example if I set up a marketing consultancy and
>>> sold deployment kits to schools for profit - I would be wearing two
>>> hats, and community members would rightly wonder in which best
>>> interest I would be acting as I proposed media campaigns.
>>> 6. I believe we are breaking new ground with what we are doing, which
>>> means it could fail. I cannot guarantee widespread positive perception
>>> of Sugar, but I can guarantee that without Sugar Labs calling the
>>> shots on Sugar on a Stick, we will have far greater difficulty growing
>>> Sugar awareness.
>>> Sean
>>> Sugar Labs Marketing Coordinator
>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Caroline Meeks
>>> <caroline at solutiongrove.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Peter,
>>>> I can agree with a lot of what you say here.
>>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Caroline,
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Caroline Meeks <solutiongrove at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Hi Sean,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What Sebastian means by this is that the Checksum must match.
>>>>> > That means.
>>>>> I think your missing the point and understanding of SoaS. Also don't
>>>>> speak for Sebastian, he does have the ability to speak for himself so
>>>>> he can do so for himself!
>>>> Your right. I should say, what Sebastian told me when we spoke was....
>>>>> > you can't change the default language
>>>>> > you can't change what activities are in it or even which are in the
>>>>> > favorite
>>>>> > ring
>>>>> > you can't add drivers
>>>>> > you can't add an eBook
>>>>> > you can't patch a known bug even with an accepted patch
>>>>> You can add all of these and what ever else you like. But if you wish
>>>>> to you can't call it SoaS. Running as a standard live cd its static
>>>>> but as a properly configured 'stick' it has a writeable home directory
>>>>> as which means the user can add what ever they like. As the user
>>>>> settings for activities, eBooks, and the ring are stored in the home
>>>>> directory they can all be changed.
>>>> that is not what Sebastian told me in a lengthy conversation. I agree that
>>>> its what you mean and I think a lot of other people may agree with your
>>>> thinking. I think pinning down exactly what is meant is extremely important
>>>> to this discussion.
>>>>> > Also since Sugar Labs does not have a Trademark on Sugar on a Stick,
>>>>> > only on
>>>>> > Sugar, I'm not sure what you are going to ask people who want to do
>>>>> > these
>>>>> > very reasonable things to call it?  I think you have to insist they
>>>>> > don't
>>>>> > use the word Sugar at all.
>>>>> Well, actually the word sugar isn't able to be trademarked as its a
>>>>> generic word in common use your wrong there. As for the use of sugar
>>>>> on a stick I think you are being in-genuine and trying to hop on the
>>>>> cart to take advantage of it. But if you want to talk about trademarks
>>>>> your making use of the SugarLabs trademarks and logos and I'm sure
>>>>> they do have the rights to them so if you want to get into discussions
>>>>> about trademarks why don't you remove those from your site to start
>>>>> with? Because people might start to believe your not actually
>>>>> associated with and endorsed by SugarLabs possibly and that might
>>>>> impact your gravy train?
>>>> The gravy train is pretty thin right now.  I'm running a pilot for free.
>>>> Providing hosting for schools.sugarlabs.org and jabber.sugarlabs.org (with
>>>> the support of our hosting provider Zill.net, thanks Patrick!) writing grant
>>>> application, working on marketing etc.  and yes I agree it might well impact
>>>> that.
>>>> Why don't I remove the trademarks from the site?  Well first because I asked
>>>> Walter, Mike Lee and Sean before I put them up.
>>>>  and it was in compliance with the trademark usage at the time
>>>>  and I'm talking to SLOBS about licensing etc.
>>>> Second I think the site moves ahead our joint interests, include making the
>>>> gravy train thicker for all. This includes sharing revenues with Sugar Labs
>>>> and making us more attractive for grants, and increasing our audience in an
>>>> important sector, parents who spend money on technology for their children.
>>>>> > I do see that maybe we don't want the wild west with anyone doing
>>>>> > anything,
>>>>> > but I'm concerned that we are going to force the very thing we are
>>>>> > trying to
>>>>> > prevent by this level of control, the splitting of the brand and
>>>>> > dispersion
>>>>> > of the teachers and parents who want to use and improve on Sugar into
>>>>> > different silos.
>>>>> Brand is everything. Look at the way Fedora uses and enforces their
>>>>> brand. Companies use their product but its not allowed to be called
>>>>> Fedora. They can use the secondary Fedora Remix brand logos but not
>>>>> the primary ones. See Linpus for example (http://www.linpus.com/). It
>>>>> the Linux that ships on the Acer Aspire Ones for example. You can
>>>>> install Fedora and any other package you like.
>>>>> You talk about splitting the brand.... you are the one splitting the
>>>>> brand. What you are doing is taking a product and modifying it. What
>>>>> your are doing is something like taking a piece of Tupperware and
>>>>> modifying it and still calling it Tupperware. They would sue your
>>>>> butt.
>>>> Sounds like we need to be really clear about what is and isn't modification.
>>>> Sebastian was clear on his definition. If the checksum is different its
>>>> modified.
>>>>> > I want to promote Sugar in the geekiest 5% of the PTO (Parent, Teachers
>>>>> > Organization) and bring those people together under the Sugar Labs
>>>>> > umbrella.
>>>>> >  But to do that we have to give them Sugar with the stuff they want. I
>>>>> > don't
>>>>> > think many of even that 5% care much about Ubuntu vs Fedora.
>>>>> > I think a lot of people will want a Sugar on a Stick that is
>>>>> > "customized"
>>>>> > for:
>>>>> I don't see that we're stopping you from promoting sugar, just asking
>>>>> you to use your own name. Just create a new name for your solution as
>>>>> the "geekiest 5% of the PTO (Parent, Teachers Organization)" will be
>>>>> able to work out that what your offering is a supported sugar
>>>>> environment, after all to use your term they are "geeks".
>>>>  You aren't stopping me. - True.  I'm pretty stubborn and hard to stop. :)
>>>> We are asking me to use a different name. This time I think its your turn to
>>>> speak for yourself and not for the community.  You seem to be asking me to
>>>> use a different name and let people figure out its Sugar. Based on what
>>>> Sebastian told me he seems to want them not to figure out its Sugar because
>>>> it might result in support requests.  What I think I heard when I talked to
>>>> Sean was he wants it to be what he see's as Sugar and have the branding done
>>>> in a consistent and positive manner.
>>>>> > Their native language, especially if its not the dominant language where
>>>>> > they live
>>>>> > the age of their kids
>>>>> > has books they like
>>>>> > actually works on their hardware (remember the official release doesn't
>>>>> > include any driver that isn't in the Fedora release)
>>>>> So your solution offers native languages? My understanding of your
>>>>> previous emails is that your only changes to the SOAS spin is that you
>>>>> change any servers to point to your own. So what's that got to do with
>>>>> native languages. The SugarLabs SOAS already offers all the current
>>>>> supported languages. The changes will remain with a properly
>>>>> configured stick, just like I mentioned above so please stop spreading
>>>>> FUD about the official SOAS release.
>>>> Yes all the languages are there its just English by default.  I believe that
>>>> it would be attractive to people to have their language as the default and
>>>> some books preloaded. I believe that that might increase the likelihood of
>>>> someone downloading and trying it.  I haven't done it yet, but I might and I
>>>> certainly think its a good idea for other people to do it.
>>>>> > I want these people to know they are using Sugar on a Stick and tell
>>>>> > people
>>>>> > about Sugar on a Stick, not some other brand name.  I want them to be
>>>>> > the
>>>>> > ambassadors that bring Sugar on a Stick to their schools.
>>>>> Yes, you want them to tell all the other people about your sugar on a
>>>>> stick dot com so you can make money out it. Don't get me wrong. I'm
>>>> I certainly wouldn't mind! Although I truely want it in schools more then I
>>>> want the money.  You can believe that or not of course. However, I'm now
>>>> working nearly full time on Sugar on a Stick and I feel like I'm making good
>>>> progress.  Furthermore I feel like WE are making great progress. I want to
>>>> keep working on it. That means I have to find a way to make money. I can
>>>> apply for grants and be a direct drain on Sugar Labs or I can try to get
>>>> parents who spend money on technology for their kids (like buying them their
>>>> own netbooks!) to spend some on collaboration and backup for Sugar. If it
>>>> works I get to keep working on Sugar! I get to goto conferences and talk
>>>> about Sugar! I get to pay developers and trainers to further Sugar.  I get
>>>> to share the money with Sugar Labs and support its work around the world. I
>>>> get to inspire competitors who bring the idea around the globe. Sounds like
>>>> fun to me. I do want it to work. And as we discussed earlier, I'm stubborn.
>>>>> not against people making money. I like to do so myself :-) Why can't
>>>>> you make your own successful brand like Linpus has by using the Fedora
>>>> Because I don't actually want a successful brand. I want Sugar to be
>>>> successful.  I want people to read sugaronastick.com download Sugar and use
>>>> it without paying for the backup service. I believe that there are some
>>>> people who will goto a wiki and download and others who will be far more
>>>> likely to try it from a stie that looks more commercial.  I think the
>>>> community needs both to break the 2% barrier.
>>>> I want there people, even those who never pay for anything, which will be
>>>> the majority,  to goto their school and tell them about Sugar. I want people
>>>> to say to their schools you don't need to buy services from these people, I
>>>> can set up an XS for you for free!  Then the school goes, wow, look at the
>>>> thousands of dollars this guy is saving us, this is really valuable.
>>>> I actually do think being able to have your kids in "the neighborhood" with
>>>> their cousins in another state or country is pretty cool and worth paying
>>>> for. I think it certainly makes Sugar way way cooler then just using it by
>>>> yourself.
>>>> Lots of people will just use Sugar and I want them to know that is what they
>>>> are doing and tell all their friends. I want them to Blog about Sugar not
>>>> about my brand.  I want them to Blog about how much they can do for free and
>>>> how their schools should use it for free!  I don't want them talking about
>>>> some other brand.
>>>> I also think its valuable for Sugar services to have a value in the
>>>> marketplace. People value what they pay for. They love to get things at a
>>>> discount, to get a great deal. If its always free then you can't get a
>>>> discount!  By putting the XS services up at a price, everyone who gives it
>>>> away/sets it up for free are now giving something people can place a value
>>>> on. (like me btw, we are hosting 2 schools right now and I've promised a
>>>> couple of others if they have any issues setting up the XS I'll do hosting)
>>>>   The world of school funding is very convoluted. There are grant
>>>> applications where we have to make budgets and many of the Grantors want to
>>>> see the project having a budget bigger then the piece they are funding.
>>>>  There are also grants that schools can get that will pay for things like
>>>> hosting but won't pay for a server and someone to set up an XS. and vica
>>>> versa, but having a source of for-fee hosting doesn't keep anyone from
>>>> setting up their own XS.
>>>> I think it can all be done in a way that builds the Sugar brand and
>>>> convinces Schools and Countries to stop spending millions of dollars on
>>>> software that does less and is not as good for learning.  And I think I can
>>>> make a paycheck. And I think I can make money that will help pay for
>>>> marketing and conferences and such for Sugar Labs.
>>>> So I'm here to work together to build the Sugar Labs brand, to increase the
>>>> use of Sugar for free and to make a paycheck and I want to stay deeply
>>>> involved in the Sugar community building an educator community that develops
>>>> and shares best practices.  And I want it all under the Sugar Labs brand.
>>>> We've lost too many good people to them having to go out and get real jobs;
>>>> Marco, Greg Smith. I don't want to have to leave for economic reasons.
>>>>> product without in-genuinely using the names that are already in use
>>>>> by SugarLabs. Why don't you go and read the Fedora Trademarks [1].
>>>>> SugarLabs has used the Fedora processes for other things like the
>>>>> Feature Process and I personally think those trademark guidelines are
>>>>> what we should adopt.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
>>>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> > From: Sean DALY <sdaly.be at gmail.com>
>>>>> > Date: Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:36 AM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [SoaS] Governance & Trademark in the Wiki
>>>>> > To: Sebastian Dziallas <sdz at sugarlabs.org>
>>>>> > Cc: SoaS <soas at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I support these changes.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks Sebastian.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Sean
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Sebastian Dziallas <sebastian at when.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >> From:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Sugar_Labs/Governance/Trademark#Sugar_on_a_Stick_Guidelines
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --Sebastian
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ------
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I am herewith proposing the following changes to the section 5a. This
>>>>> >> has been derived from Fedora's trademark guidelines [1] and might need
>>>>> >> to be adjusted to cover more cases, as listed in those guidelines. By
>>>>> >> referring to Sugar on a Stick, the following draft means the project
>>>>> >> located [2] and hosted [3] here.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> - You *may* use the term "Sugar on a Stick" whenever referring to the
>>>>> >> official Sugar on a Stick product and its releases, as well as when
>>>>> >> distributing unmodified copies of it.
>>>>> >> -- However, this usage *must not* imply any endorsement by Sugar Labs
>>>>> >> or
>>>>> >> the Sugar on a Stick project, unless this is case and an appropriate
>>>>> >> agreement has been reached.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> - You *may* modify Sugar on a Stick and create remixes of it.
>>>>> >> -- However, when distributing or selling this modified version, you
>>>>> >> *must not* call it Sugar on a Stick.
>>>>> >> -- When not exposing the resulting product to the public, you *may*
>>>>> >> still call it Sugar on a Stick, though. A deployment might adjust Sugar
>>>>> >> on a Stick for its needs and still say it deployed Sugar on a Stick, as
>>>>> >> long as the modified version is not distributed publicly.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
>>>>> >> [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
>>>>> >> [3] http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/soas
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> SoaS mailing list
>>>>> >> SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
>>>>> >>
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > SoaS mailing list
>>>>> > SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Caroline Meeks
>>>>> > Solution Grove
>>>>> > Caroline at SolutionGrove.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 617-500-3488 - Office
>>>>> > 505-213-3268 - Fax
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > SoaS mailing list
>>>>> > SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>> --
>>>> Caroline Meeks
>>>> Solution Grove
>>>> Caroline at SolutionGrove.com
>>>> 617-500-3488 - Office
>>>> 505-213-3268 - Fax
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Marketing mailing list
>>> Marketing at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing
>> --
>> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar.
>> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David
>> Farning
>> _______________________________________________
>> SoaS mailing list
>> SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
> --
> DancesWithCars
> leave the wolves behind ;-)

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