[Marketing] [SoaS] Governance & Trademark in the Wiki
tomeu at sugarlabs.org
Mon Oct 19 06:57:10 EDT 2009
On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:47, Sean DALY <sdaly.be at gmail.com> wrote:
> There are several intertwined issues here and I would like to make my
> position clear (or clearer ;-) on several points.
> 1. "Sugar on a Stick" is indeed a brand, and the Marketing Team has
> been building it as a brand. It has "brand equity": value, a topic I
> will elaborate on shortly in a separate post. We are building the
> brand because it is a key part of the Sugar Labs strategy to make
> Sugar known as an available alternative on classroom computers
> (whatever they are). As a Sugar Labs brand, I have advocated for
> months that it be trademarked.
> 2. Branding only works if the underlying value proposition - the
> product, goods, or services - is of interest and value to the target
> market. In non-marketing jargon, that means the product itself must be
> good for the brand to grow, and to achieve a breakout of quick growth
> (say 2 years instead of 10), the product must be great.
> 3. "Sugar on a Stick" can only grow as a brand if we carefully choose
> how it is presented and promoted and perceived. Anyone wishing to
> modify Sugar on a Stick should either do so and call it something
> else, or consult with us so their contribution can be better
> integrated into the project, and we can be sure confusion will be
> avoided, and we can even leverage their initiative in our marketing.
Btw, have we considered already allowing derivatives of SoaS be called
SoaS remix or so like Fedora does?
> Unfortunately, sugaronastick.com is damaging the brand, because it
> creates confusion. Confusion is deadly to any growing brand. Caroline,
> we can try to fit what you're doing with that site into the Sugar Labs
> strategy, but opening that site without consulting the community may
> have compromised that. Many of us have our work on that site, yet we
> have no say in it, and that's not OK. Of course, there would be no
> issue if the version and site were named differently.
> 4. As Martin Dengler has passionately and eloquently pointed out, at
> this time no one is in a position to support Sugar on a Stick in a way
> that scales. My view is that a for-profit ecosystem of integrators
> working for schools needs to be developed. However, it's a wide-open
> question at this point whether and how this should be done. Which is
> why Sugar on a Stick's main role now and in at least the year to come
> is not as a deployable solution for schools, but the best way of
> spreading the word to teachers that an alternative exists. In this
> light, I believe it is premature to present SoaS as school-ready. And,
> we cannot encourage anyone to call any liveUSB Sugar implementation
> "Sugar on a Stick", because unofficial versions will not be
> supportable, and the result will be damage to the brand.
> 5. Everyone needs to make a living, and all of us are contributing our
> valuable time, and many of us funds, to get Sugar off the ground. In
> my view, a fair approach would be for expenses to be tallied and
> reimbursed at such a time as we have sufficient funding to do so. I
> certainly won't begrudge you the time, money and resources you are
> putting into Sugar Labs, but I'm afraid there is a lack of clarity
> between what you're doing for Sugar Labs and what you want to do for
> profit. Imagine for example if I set up a marketing consultancy and
> sold deployment kits to schools for profit - I would be wearing two
> hats, and community members would rightly wonder in which best
> interest I would be acting as I proposed media campaigns.
> 6. I believe we are breaking new ground with what we are doing, which
> means it could fail. I cannot guarantee widespread positive perception
> of Sugar, but I can guarantee that without Sugar Labs calling the
> shots on Sugar on a Stick, we will have far greater difficulty growing
> Sugar awareness.
> Sugar Labs Marketing Coordinator
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Caroline Meeks
> <caroline at solutiongrove.com> wrote:
>> Hi Peter,
>> I can agree with a lot of what you say here.
>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>
>>> Hi Caroline,
>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Caroline Meeks <solutiongrove at gmail.com>
>>> > Hi Sean,
>>> > What Sebastian means by this is that the Checksum must match.
>>> > That means.
>>> I think your missing the point and understanding of SoaS. Also don't
>>> speak for Sebastian, he does have the ability to speak for himself so
>>> he can do so for himself!
>> Your right. I should say, what Sebastian told me when we spoke was....
>>> > you can't change the default language
>>> > you can't change what activities are in it or even which are in the
>>> > favorite
>>> > ring
>>> > you can't add drivers
>>> > you can't add an eBook
>>> > you can't patch a known bug even with an accepted patch
>>> You can add all of these and what ever else you like. But if you wish
>>> to you can't call it SoaS. Running as a standard live cd its static
>>> but as a properly configured 'stick' it has a writeable home directory
>>> as which means the user can add what ever they like. As the user
>>> settings for activities, eBooks, and the ring are stored in the home
>>> directory they can all be changed.
>> that is not what Sebastian told me in a lengthy conversation. I agree that
>> its what you mean and I think a lot of other people may agree with your
>> thinking. I think pinning down exactly what is meant is extremely important
>> to this discussion.
>>> > Also since Sugar Labs does not have a Trademark on Sugar on a Stick,
>>> > only on
>>> > Sugar, I'm not sure what you are going to ask people who want to do
>>> > these
>>> > very reasonable things to call it? I think you have to insist they
>>> > don't
>>> > use the word Sugar at all.
>>> Well, actually the word sugar isn't able to be trademarked as its a
>>> generic word in common use your wrong there. As for the use of sugar
>>> on a stick I think you are being in-genuine and trying to hop on the
>>> cart to take advantage of it. But if you want to talk about trademarks
>>> your making use of the SugarLabs trademarks and logos and I'm sure
>>> they do have the rights to them so if you want to get into discussions
>>> about trademarks why don't you remove those from your site to start
>>> with? Because people might start to believe your not actually
>>> associated with and endorsed by SugarLabs possibly and that might
>>> impact your gravy train?
>> The gravy train is pretty thin right now. I'm running a pilot for free.
>> Providing hosting for schools.sugarlabs.org and jabber.sugarlabs.org (with
>> the support of our hosting provider Zill.net, thanks Patrick!) writing grant
>> application, working on marketing etc. and yes I agree it might well impact
>> Why don't I remove the trademarks from the site? Well first because I asked
>> Walter, Mike Lee and Sean before I put them up.
>> and it was in compliance with the trademark usage at the time
>> and I'm talking to SLOBS about licensing etc.
>> Second I think the site moves ahead our joint interests, include making the
>> gravy train thicker for all. This includes sharing revenues with Sugar Labs
>> and making us more attractive for grants, and increasing our audience in an
>> important sector, parents who spend money on technology for their children.
>>> > I do see that maybe we don't want the wild west with anyone doing
>>> > anything,
>>> > but I'm concerned that we are going to force the very thing we are
>>> > trying to
>>> > prevent by this level of control, the splitting of the brand and
>>> > dispersion
>>> > of the teachers and parents who want to use and improve on Sugar into
>>> > different silos.
>>> Brand is everything. Look at the way Fedora uses and enforces their
>>> brand. Companies use their product but its not allowed to be called
>>> Fedora. They can use the secondary Fedora Remix brand logos but not
>>> the primary ones. See Linpus for example (http://www.linpus.com/). It
>>> the Linux that ships on the Acer Aspire Ones for example. You can
>>> install Fedora and any other package you like.
>>> You talk about splitting the brand.... you are the one splitting the
>>> brand. What you are doing is taking a product and modifying it. What
>>> your are doing is something like taking a piece of Tupperware and
>>> modifying it and still calling it Tupperware. They would sue your
>> Sounds like we need to be really clear about what is and isn't modification.
>> Sebastian was clear on his definition. If the checksum is different its
>>> > I want to promote Sugar in the geekiest 5% of the PTO (Parent, Teachers
>>> > Organization) and bring those people together under the Sugar Labs
>>> > umbrella.
>>> > But to do that we have to give them Sugar with the stuff they want. I
>>> > don't
>>> > think many of even that 5% care much about Ubuntu vs Fedora.
>>> > I think a lot of people will want a Sugar on a Stick that is
>>> > "customized"
>>> > for:
>>> I don't see that we're stopping you from promoting sugar, just asking
>>> you to use your own name. Just create a new name for your solution as
>>> the "geekiest 5% of the PTO (Parent, Teachers Organization)" will be
>>> able to work out that what your offering is a supported sugar
>>> environment, after all to use your term they are "geeks".
>> You aren't stopping me. - True. I'm pretty stubborn and hard to stop. :)
>> We are asking me to use a different name. This time I think its your turn to
>> speak for yourself and not for the community. You seem to be asking me to
>> use a different name and let people figure out its Sugar. Based on what
>> Sebastian told me he seems to want them not to figure out its Sugar because
>> it might result in support requests. What I think I heard when I talked to
>> Sean was he wants it to be what he see's as Sugar and have the branding done
>> in a consistent and positive manner.
>>> > Their native language, especially if its not the dominant language where
>>> > they live
>>> > the age of their kids
>>> > has books they like
>>> > actually works on their hardware (remember the official release doesn't
>>> > include any driver that isn't in the Fedora release)
>>> So your solution offers native languages? My understanding of your
>>> previous emails is that your only changes to the SOAS spin is that you
>>> change any servers to point to your own. So what's that got to do with
>>> native languages. The SugarLabs SOAS already offers all the current
>>> supported languages. The changes will remain with a properly
>>> configured stick, just like I mentioned above so please stop spreading
>>> FUD about the official SOAS release.
>> Yes all the languages are there its just English by default. I believe that
>> it would be attractive to people to have their language as the default and
>> some books preloaded. I believe that that might increase the likelihood of
>> someone downloading and trying it. I haven't done it yet, but I might and I
>> certainly think its a good idea for other people to do it.
>>> > I want these people to know they are using Sugar on a Stick and tell
>>> > people
>>> > about Sugar on a Stick, not some other brand name. I want them to be
>>> > the
>>> > ambassadors that bring Sugar on a Stick to their schools.
>>> Yes, you want them to tell all the other people about your sugar on a
>>> stick dot com so you can make money out it. Don't get me wrong. I'm
>> I certainly wouldn't mind! Although I truely want it in schools more then I
>> want the money. You can believe that or not of course. However, I'm now
>> working nearly full time on Sugar on a Stick and I feel like I'm making good
>> progress. Furthermore I feel like WE are making great progress. I want to
>> keep working on it. That means I have to find a way to make money. I can
>> apply for grants and be a direct drain on Sugar Labs or I can try to get
>> parents who spend money on technology for their kids (like buying them their
>> own netbooks!) to spend some on collaboration and backup for Sugar. If it
>> works I get to keep working on Sugar! I get to goto conferences and talk
>> about Sugar! I get to pay developers and trainers to further Sugar. I get
>> to share the money with Sugar Labs and support its work around the world. I
>> get to inspire competitors who bring the idea around the globe. Sounds like
>> fun to me. I do want it to work. And as we discussed earlier, I'm stubborn.
>>> not against people making money. I like to do so myself :-) Why can't
>>> you make your own successful brand like Linpus has by using the Fedora
>> Because I don't actually want a successful brand. I want Sugar to be
>> successful. I want people to read sugaronastick.com download Sugar and use
>> it without paying for the backup service. I believe that there are some
>> people who will goto a wiki and download and others who will be far more
>> likely to try it from a stie that looks more commercial. I think the
>> community needs both to break the 2% barrier.
>> I want there people, even those who never pay for anything, which will be
>> the majority, to goto their school and tell them about Sugar. I want people
>> to say to their schools you don't need to buy services from these people, I
>> can set up an XS for you for free! Then the school goes, wow, look at the
>> thousands of dollars this guy is saving us, this is really valuable.
>> I actually do think being able to have your kids in "the neighborhood" with
>> their cousins in another state or country is pretty cool and worth paying
>> for. I think it certainly makes Sugar way way cooler then just using it by
>> Lots of people will just use Sugar and I want them to know that is what they
>> are doing and tell all their friends. I want them to Blog about Sugar not
>> about my brand. I want them to Blog about how much they can do for free and
>> how their schools should use it for free! I don't want them talking about
>> some other brand.
>> I also think its valuable for Sugar services to have a value in the
>> marketplace. People value what they pay for. They love to get things at a
>> discount, to get a great deal. If its always free then you can't get a
>> discount! By putting the XS services up at a price, everyone who gives it
>> away/sets it up for free are now giving something people can place a value
>> on. (like me btw, we are hosting 2 schools right now and I've promised a
>> couple of others if they have any issues setting up the XS I'll do hosting)
>> The world of school funding is very convoluted. There are grant
>> applications where we have to make budgets and many of the Grantors want to
>> see the project having a budget bigger then the piece they are funding.
>> There are also grants that schools can get that will pay for things like
>> hosting but won't pay for a server and someone to set up an XS. and vica
>> versa, but having a source of for-fee hosting doesn't keep anyone from
>> setting up their own XS.
>> I think it can all be done in a way that builds the Sugar brand and
>> convinces Schools and Countries to stop spending millions of dollars on
>> software that does less and is not as good for learning. And I think I can
>> make a paycheck. And I think I can make money that will help pay for
>> marketing and conferences and such for Sugar Labs.
>> So I'm here to work together to build the Sugar Labs brand, to increase the
>> use of Sugar for free and to make a paycheck and I want to stay deeply
>> involved in the Sugar community building an educator community that develops
>> and shares best practices. And I want it all under the Sugar Labs brand.
>> We've lost too many good people to them having to go out and get real jobs;
>> Marco, Greg Smith. I don't want to have to leave for economic reasons.
>>> product without in-genuinely using the names that are already in use
>>> by SugarLabs. Why don't you go and read the Fedora Trademarks .
>>> SugarLabs has used the Fedora processes for other things like the
>>> Feature Process and I personally think those trademark guidelines are
>>> what we should adopt.
>>>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> > From: Sean DALY <sdaly.be at gmail.com>
>>> > Date: Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:36 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [SoaS] Governance & Trademark in the Wiki
>>> > To: Sebastian Dziallas <sdz at sugarlabs.org>
>>> > Cc: SoaS <soas at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>>> > I support these changes.
>>> > Thanks Sebastian.
>>> > Sean
>>> > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Sebastian Dziallas <sebastian at when.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >> From:
>>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Sugar_Labs/Governance/Trademark#Sugar_on_a_Stick_Guidelines
>>> >> --Sebastian
>>> >> ------
>>> >> I am herewith proposing the following changes to the section 5a. This
>>> >> has been derived from Fedora's trademark guidelines  and might need
>>> >> to be adjusted to cover more cases, as listed in those guidelines. By
>>> >> referring to Sugar on a Stick, the following draft means the project
>>> >> located  and hosted  here.
>>> >> - You *may* use the term "Sugar on a Stick" whenever referring to the
>>> >> official Sugar on a Stick product and its releases, as well as when
>>> >> distributing unmodified copies of it.
>>> >> -- However, this usage *must not* imply any endorsement by Sugar Labs
>>> >> or
>>> >> the Sugar on a Stick project, unless this is case and an appropriate
>>> >> agreement has been reached.
>>> >> - You *may* modify Sugar on a Stick and create remixes of it.
>>> >> -- However, when distributing or selling this modified version, you
>>> >> *must not* call it Sugar on a Stick.
>>> >> -- When not exposing the resulting product to the public, you *may*
>>> >> still call it Sugar on a Stick, though. A deployment might adjust Sugar
>>> >> on a Stick for its needs and still say it deployed Sugar on a Stick, as
>>> >> long as the modified version is not distributed publicly.
>>> >>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines
>>> >>  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
>>> >>  http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/soas
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> SoaS mailing list
>>> >> SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > SoaS mailing list
>>> > SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
>>> > --
>>> > Caroline Meeks
>>> > Solution Grove
>>> > Caroline at SolutionGrove.com
>>> > 617-500-3488 - Office
>>> > 505-213-3268 - Fax
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > SoaS mailing list
>>> > SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
>> Caroline Meeks
>> Solution Grove
>> Caroline at SolutionGrove.com
>> 617-500-3488 - Office
>> 505-213-3268 - Fax
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