<html> <head> <style></style></head> <body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'> Hi Steve,<div><br></div><div>Thanks so much for your thoughtful and very thorough answer. If this project happens, which is still not sure, it sounds like Scratch would be the way to go. Localization would be a lot easier in Etoys, from what you have described, but getting the initial product completed in English for starters (and maybe Spanish done in parallel with it) would probably work best in Scratch. If we do decide to go with Etoys though, we will surely take you up on your kind offer of assistance.</div><div><br></div><div>Caryl<br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 21:41:23 -0300<br>Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys or Scratch?<br>From: sthomas1@gosargon.com<br>To: cbigenho@hotmail.com; curiouslee@gmail.com<br>CC: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org; support-gang@laptop.org<br><br><div><span><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Caryl,</span></span></div><div><span><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br> </span></span></div><div><span><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">You may want to talk with Mike Lee who did some amazing work with the <a href="http://www.lubuto.org/" target="_blank">Lubuto Project</a> using Etoys.</span></span></div> <div><span><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></span></div><div><span id="ecxinternal-source-marker_0.5576243028044701"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">So here are the pro's and con's of each platform if your are trying to solve the problems of:</span><br> <blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">animation, sound, possible narration, interaction and all that sort of thing. The text and sound in the end product would be translated into many target languages. The project might be done by youth with little or no prior programming experience.</span></blockquote> <span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">I will try and be as objective as possible, but I am prejudiced towards Etoys, so please get other opinions.</span><br> <span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Animation:</span><ul> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">I will classify animation in two parts:</span></li><ul> <li style="list-style-type:circle;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Animating individual Sprites/Players</span></li><ul style="font-family:Times;font-size:medium;font-weight:bold"> <li style="list-style-type:square;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Scratch: simpler UI and interface for kids. Use multiple costumes and iterate over them using next costume. Scratch also has glide tile which Etoys does not (although it can be done, but we would have to create some projects to make this simpler).</span></li> <li style="list-style-type:square;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Etoys: Done with holders, there are other very nice and clever ways, but not for use with kids with little to no experience. The advantage of the Etoys method is the kids can "see" the iteration as you iterate through the holder. The disadvantage of this approach is that if you have a lot of "cells" in your animation you may not be able to see them all at once. Scratch, autosizes the "costumes" so you can see more on one screen.</span></li> <li style="list-style-type:square;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">My Bottom line: Scratch simpler for kids. Etoys lets them "see the iteration" which is probably not our main goal :)</span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></li> </ul></ul><ul style="font-family:Times;font-size:medium;font-weight:bold"><li style="list-style-type:circle;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Synchonizing Animations over time</span></li> <ul><li style="list-style-type:square;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Scratch: Syncronizing animations in Scratch is much easier (thanks to the wait, broadcast and wait, say/think for x secs and play sound until done. </span></li> <li style="list-style-type:square;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Etoys: It can be done in Etoys, but not as simple. If you do choose Etoys, we should provide you with a special set of "hand made scripting tiles" to make certain types of animation synchronization simpler. </span></li> <li style="list-style-type:square;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">My Bottom Line: Scratch wins.</span></li></ul></ul> </ul><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Sound (Here referring to sounds such as "Musical Instruments", will talk about recorded voice under narration):</span><ul style="font-family:Times;font-size:medium;font-weight:bold"> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Scratch: Has pre-samples instruments included.</span></li> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Etoys: You would have to record the music and then play the sound. Some issues with reverb (which can be handled) and really needs a “Play until done” or something to prevent the problem that can occur where when for example you have a play sound on mouse down, if they mouse down, multiple times it plays the same sound over itself. </span></li> </ul><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Possible Narration (at least as how it differs from what I will call basic sound):</span><ul style="font-family:Times;font-size:medium;font-weight:bold"> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Scratch: can record and play narration</span></li><li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"> <span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Etoys: also can record and play narration, key issue is synchronization with other events. Can be done, but not simple “out of the box” we can support you with special tiles, but synchronization really should be much easier.</span></li> </ul><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Interaction:</span><ul style="font-family:Times;font-size:medium;font-weight:bold"> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Scratch: react to the following events - mouse down, key pressed, clicked (this is mouse up in Etoys), color sensing and overlapping other objects.. Mouse over can be detecte but needs scripting. Ask tile pre-build in Scratch.</span></li> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Etoys: react to the above events, plus Mouse up simpler, and also mouse enter, mouse leave, mouse still down, mouse enter dragging something, mouse leaving dragging something, color sensing and overlapping other objects. Connected to and Disconnected from. In Etoys you need to build your own Ask tile.</span></li> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">My bottom line: tie, both are good, Etoys has a few extra events it can sense, connecting can be powerful, but in general both good.</span></li> </ul><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br> <span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Text Translation:</span><ul style="font-family:Times;font-size:medium;font-weight:bold"><li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"> <span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Scratch: Need to Translate text by creating seperate projects.</span></li><li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"> <span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Etoys: Text translation automatic when you change languages (not not auto translation, but if in English and enter </span><span style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Hello</span><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> then switch to Spnish and change text to </span><span style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Hola.</span><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> The text will auto-switch when you change languages.</span></li> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Bottom Line: If you make a “animation change” after you have translated text, in Etoys you make the change in one project, with Scratch you would have to make the changes in all projects or re-enter the text. Having said that Narration changes, may negate that advantage, but I think we can solve that problem if you choose Etoys, need to think about it more.</span></li> </ul><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Narration Translation:</span><ul style="font-family:Times;font-size:medium;font-weight:bold"> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">In both cases you will obviously need to record the different translations. Tie. </span></li> </ul><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Being done by "youth with little or no prior programming experience":</span><ul style="font-family:Times;font-size:medium;font-weight:bold"> <li style="list-style-type:disc;font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">My bottom line: Scratch has a much better designed scripting tiles, easier to use and learn. Etoys is more “powerful” (sorry, but too large of a topic and too little time to provide details here), the question is will kids use this power. I think not. Only possible advantage is if you do something like I believe Mike Lee did with the Lubuto project where you create some pre-built projects using the power of Etoys, to make the creation of your final results easier.</span></li> </ul><div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">One more thing to consider: How well will each system handle change?</span></font></div><div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">For example, you have created your projects, done the text and narration changes, when all of a sudden you realize there is a "bug" in one of the interactions. You have translated it into 50 languages (congratulations!!!) but now you have to go back and change 50 projects :(. Here the text translation capabilities built into Etoys is a big advantage as you have one project that contains all the text. But, if you have narration challenges, you probably don't want to store all the translations in one project (file would be too big). I would need to think about this more and an email to the etoys list would be good (unless anyone wants to answer here).</span></font></div> <div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">Also when designing a curricullum or project like this with kids, you need to ask what you want to make hard and what you want to make easy. With Etoys, you can build tools, that help make certain parts easier for kids (and the adults who help them).</span></font></div> <div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">My Bottom Bottom line: If you have little to no support from the community, Scratch wins and you should use it. If you can get support from the Etoys community (which you can, I for one would be glad to help) you can build tools within Etoys projects to overcome some of its shortcomings.</span></font></div> <div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">All that said, in the end it's content that matters, not the tool. So whichever you choose, I am sure you and the kids will do well.</span></font></div> <div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">Hope this helps,</span></font></div> <div><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">Stephen</span></font></div></span></div></div></div> </div></body> </html>