<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:14pt"><div><span>Thanks Ron!</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Well, there are no barriers besides some work and a few more features to make up the differences in either direction. So that is probably what should be done.</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Cheers,</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Alan<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 14pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Arial" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ron Teitelbaum <horont@earthlink.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'Alan Kay' <alan.nemo@yahoo.com>; 'Steve Thomas' <sthomas1@gosargon.com>; 'iaep' <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org>; naturalmath@googlegroups.com; 'squeakland' <squeakland@squeakland.org>; scratched@scratch.mit.edu; John Maloney <jmaloney@media.mit.edu><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, September 2, 2011 10:47 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [squeakland] [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?<br></font><br><div id="yiv259865821"><style></style><div class="yiv259865821WordSection1"><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Hi All,</span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Terrific answer Alan. The user experience issue is something we deal with in a number of different places. Our systems are very difficult to explain to people but once you get people in to try it they get it. The learning curve on OpenQwaq is very small for beginners and we have depth for advanced users (arguably to much depth in places, making the system more complex than it needs to be). The problem seems to be getting people in and keeping them there long enough to get it. </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I showed Etoys and Scratch to my daughter. She was 15 at the time I believe. She needed some prodding to understand Etoys but picked up Scratch right away. The initial concept explanation was very simple with Scratch: This is a thing, this is an action, this is logic. See how they are all puzzle pieces that fit together? The initial concept explanation for Etoys took longer. In both cases she was drawn to drawing and making things look interesting much more than the movement or logic. </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I love both pieces of software. Scratch is fun and easy to explain plus it drives people to try and understand programming by giving hints about what things can work together. I spent much more time enjoying Etoys. Not surprising considering what I do for a living, but still I was playing and creating much more interesting things in Etoys. The concepts are a bit harder to pick up because it demands more understanding from students and takes more mentoring from teachers but I agree with Alan: it has more depth, which is much more satisfying for someone with real interest. </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I’ve been considering a 3d version of Scratch or Etoys for OpenQwaq. I’ve been drawn more to Scratch then Etoys probably because I place a higher value on the amount of time it takes to explain and see initial results. From a teacher perspective this has tremendous value since it makes my job easier, and it allows more people to take advantage of the features if they find them. It would keep their interest long enough to find value and then come back later to try some real things for themselves. I suppose I worry that Etoys would be very useful but if people don’t use it long enough to see it work they will give up and never use it.</span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">So from my perspective as a software provider Scratch wins, but if I were providing the software for ME to use I would rather see Etoys. I guess I’ve convinced myself that there is no good answer. What matters more is not the software but the student and the teacher. Given a talented and motivated student I’d probably spend the time and energy showing them Etoys because they will hit the wall on Scratch much sooner. A student that shows little interest and really only wants the basics will do better on Scratch. </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Interesting discussion.</span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">All the best,</span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:navy;">Ron Teitelbaum</span></i></b></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#365F91;">Immersive Collaboration Expert</span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#244061;">3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting</span></b><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#244061;"></span></b></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#365F91;">Ron@3dicc.com</span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";"> squeakland-bounces@squeakland.org [mailto:squeakland-bounces@squeakland.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Kay<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 02, 2011 11:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> Steve Thomas; iaep; naturalmath@googlegroups.com; squeakland; scratched@scratch.mit.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [squeakland] [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal"> </div><div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Both Etoys and Scratch were done by some of the same people (especially John Maloney), and both are on top of Squeak Smalltalk. The original Etoys interface was more like Scratch's (small area for action results, most of the screen area used for showing tools, tiles, etc.). The first Etoys was aimed at the web (at Disney), and making the start up more obvious and using more screen for it is a good idea I think. The projects for the first Etoys were also like Scratch projects: effects, jokes, postcards, simple animations, etc.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">The next version of Etoys was for classrooms that would have much more help and do more ambitious projects. So we went to a full screen with flaps for the tools. This worked well in this setting.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">The OLPC XO presented a problem in that it had lots of pixels but a very small visual angle. We decided to stay with the classroom version, and I think this was a good idea on the one hand, but it went against the general lack of help that might be available in many of the XO's destinations.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Then we handed Etoys over to the Squeak Foundation, and the version they put out online retains the classroom UI with flaps.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Personally, I think the Scratch UI is better for many things than the Etoys UI, especially first encounters, which are so important for so many beginners these days. And I think the Scratch people have done a fantastic job on their web presence, including their gallery, the emulator for Scratch projects so you can see what they do, their online materials, etc.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">On the other hand, Scratch lacks a real media system, a massively parallel particle system, and many other features that are really needed and useful for learning things beyond simple programming. Etoys is much more complete in many more ways.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Both systems have strong and weak points as to their language choices. Both lack nice extensions into more sophisticated programming. Both need to be greatly improved.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">And so forth.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">But I think in the world we live in, it is initial experiences that count in a non-classical culture (and this is most cultures around the world including the US). So we have to praise Scratch here, and wish that it had more depth. Etoys could easily be set up with a more useful exposed UI, and this would help tremendously in initial impressions.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">As to how many features to include, this is a tricky one. Scratch has quite a few features -- such as the thought balloon one -- because it was primarily initially designed for the "Computer Clubhouses", afternoon drop in experiences for junior high and high school kids. </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Etoys has fewer built in features because part of the "real deal" is to learn how to make your own features. It could have clip art, but we left it out because it is cognitively a good thing for children to learn how to draw. This is good for a "learning tool", but is not good for a "productivity tool".</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">There is no question that both systems could be improved along the lines of their current styles.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">One could also imagine taking the lessons learned from both systems and inventing a new environment that is quite a bit better than either. I like this option the best.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Cheers,</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Alan</span></div></div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"> </span></div><div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:black;"><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"sans-serif";color:black;"> Steve Thomas <sthomas1@gosargon.com><br><b>To:</b> iaep <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org>; naturalmath@googlegroups.com; squeakland <squeakland@squeakland.org>; scratched@scratch.mit.edu<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 2, 2011 7:04 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?</span><span style="color:black;"></span></div><div id="yiv259865821"><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids prefer Scratch. I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys for most learning and teaching.</span></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? And vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch?</span></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">. </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect assumptions and prejudices ;)</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Stephen</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not looking for the "one ring to rule them all." Each language/environment has its advantages and we need multiple.</span></div></div></div></div></div><div class="yiv259865821MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><br>_______________________________________________<br>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><br><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>