<ol><li>I believe Carlos raises valid points</li><li>We need specifics so we can prioritize and address them, So:</li><ol><li>Let's stop talking in generalities and about volunteer vs corporate, we are what we are, so let's make the best of it</li> <li>We should work with Carlos (who I find generally very helpful and supportive and I firmly believe has a heart to help and that is why he made the criticisms) to get a list of specific issues, so we can identify and prioritize solutions.</li> </ol></ol><div>Stephen</div><div> <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Chris Leonard <<a href="mailto:cjlhomeaddress@gmail.com">cjlhomeaddress@gmail.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="im">On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Kenneth Wyrick <<a href="mailto:kmw@caltek.net">kmw@caltek.net</a>> wrote: > Chris, > > Since this seems to be something you have sincere passion about, would you > be willing to simply list/summarize specific points that you see that > Carlos made so we can talk about them point by point to hopefully arrive > at a more succinct overall intention of his communication? </div>Kenneth, I do have a passion for Sugar / OLPC and perhaps that is why I identify with the passion that I see in Carlos' message. I would reprise my comment that the discussion is best carried out *with* Carlos and in Spanish on the lists he posted his message, but I will give it a shot. However, I will say that I cannot really speak to Carlos concerns, that conversation should happen with Carlos. I intersperse my comments with his paragraphs below (prepending mine with "cjl"). Quoting from the English translation at <div class="im"><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1yBr2G7FF5Jr46ixt_THm1xQh08cyNJXx8KUy-WDZ1Xs" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1yBr2G7FF5Jr46ixt_THm1xQh08cyNJXx8KUy-WDZ1Xs</a> </div>First let's acknowledge this as a potentially misleading starting point as tone can easily be mangled by Google Translate. "I work since 1983, using computers as an important tool to earn a living. While working, I had to learn DOS, Windows and Macintosh. I also learned Open Office, Google Docs and Etoys after retiring from work." cjl - It is clear to me from this that Carlos has a lifetime of expectations formed by the systems that he grew up using. It is a psychological phenomena that "violation of expectations" leads to strong reactions. I've worked as programmer on and off since the late '70's. Yes, I've booted computers from cassette tape, been paid to program on IBM punch cards, have used Wang 8 inch floppies and know what a read-write ring looks like and does. I know where he is coming from. "I just cannot learn Sugar. I ask for help when I find problems I cannot resolve but I don´t seem to get answers that make any sense." cjl - In this I read frustration at the comnunications channels, I can sympathize with this sentiment and imagine it must be amplified for a native Spanish speaker. In my opinion this is the crux of the message that deserves further exploration of the exact issues and engagement with a positive tone to seek improvements and where possible remedies for the problems that plague Carlos and other users. This is the feedback we've been asking for, it is up to us to take him seriously (as he should be) and draw him out on the details. Sorry, it isn't filed in a bug-tracker with a patch, it will require a conversation. "From what I hear at meetings, both in Uruguay and overseas, and from what I read in lists, I can assure I am not the only one having this problem." cjl - No question he is right about this. In fact the lack of feedback from deployments is often bemoaned on the IAEP list. It is just a little amusing and slightly sad that when such feedback comes (however poorly framed), the first response is to reject it, "I beg you excuse my ignorance. If some ignorant like me doesn´t speak clearly, we will continue to waste our time for ever as well as waste the precious time of children and adolescents and trying to convince teachers they don´t know how to teach." "If you are ashamed of confessing you don´t know, continuing in ignorance is more of a shame." cjl - Here Carlos admits his own shortcomings (we all have them) and asks for enlightnement. This to me is a sign of intelligence, admitting one's own limitations. "I said I learned to work with quite diverse computers and operating systems and I just cannot get to learn Sugar. Let´s try to find then, what does Sugar have different from DOS, Windows, Macintosh, Open Office, Google Docs and Etoys." cjl - see earlier comment about "violation of expectations". "A characteristic common to all the systems I was able to learn and use with positive results is they work well. They work well for common people like myself and for most people who need to know the basicas to be able to work, adapting those programs to the specific problems of our jobs or further study. That basic training, enables us to face the challenges the real world presents to all who work and/or study." cjl - Here, I suspect that Carlos is confusing the Sugar Learning environment with the workplace tools he is familiar with. This is understandable, this confusion with the goals of Sugar exists widely and can be hard to overcome. Apparently OLPC has lost deployment opportunities because an XO cannot be used to provide vocational training in Microsoft Office. Int4erestingly, even the smallest steps to allow Windows to run on an XO by tweaking the open firmware produced vehement reactions within the community. cjl - To paraphrase the Haggadah (the Jewish service for the Passover meal) it is incumbent on us to ask and answer the question: "Why is this OS different from all other OSes?" "In a few words, my opinion is Sugar does not work. Those who think otherwise, should just follow the messages in the mail lists, preferrably those in Spanish, the language of Uruguay and several other countries, or become a volunteer and live with the problems." cjl - A not unjustified call for listening closely to the feedback that is given (mostly in Spanish) and to live with real-world deployment issues. Again I see this as a clarion call for more engagement. "Why doesn´t it work?" "I will offer my best ignorant´s opinion. Anyone with an answer closer to the truth, please explain it to us so we continue living in armony and progressing for everybody´s benefit." "I will explain, using an imaginary example, my opinion on why Sugar doesn´t even get close to the reliability and usefullness level of the other systems we mentioned." cjl - I have to give him some points on the reliability concern, I would have to ask the question of "usefulness" by asking "usefulness for what purpose", back to the learning tool versus workplace tool issue. "Let´s think of Apple, currently the most successful company in the business, at world level. It acquired its good reputation offering devices that work well since we open the box and programs that most of us can learn how to use with good results within a short time." cjl - Regardless of your feelings about Apple, this is not an inaccurate description of some elements that have contributed to their success. Let's please accept that responding to this by getting into discussions about Apple would be a distraction, so let's avoid doing that. "Let´s imagine now that Apple directors decide to save money by firing <div class="im">all the great programmers they employ, dedicated to write their operating systems. Let´s imagine they decide that a group of volunteers, worldwide, with a horizontal organization without chiefs, is the latest model in modern business management. What would </div>happen? How much longer would Apple survive? Days? Hours? I am neither complaining, nor criticizing the past or the present." cjl - Well, this is a bit of rehashing OLPC's decision-making around supporting Sugar that lead to the spin out of Sugar Labs back in May 2008. I really, really don't want to re-litigate that, it is water long under the bridge. Those of us who were around at that time remember it as a time of high passions and recriminations, some were even moved to express themselves in outrageous forms (<a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Random_musings" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Random_musings</a>) just to exorcise those demons and move forward with the important work at hand. "Thanks to Sugar and to many other organizations and persons, Plan Ceibal started, it accomplished tremendous progress and it is where it is today. Let´s congratulate all those who helped bring it to this point, from those who made the big decisions, to OLPC and each and all teachers, students, relatives and volunteers." cjl - An acknowledgement that OLPC and Sugar have changed the nature of the discourse around ICT and learning. "Wouldn´t this be the time to recognize Sugar is what is currently preventing us to move ahead, and to dedicate all our tremendous collective intelligence and energy to continue moving ahead? Anyone may trip on a roadblock. We have to get up and continue on our way. We cannot let a program that has problems stop everything." cjl - Sounds like a call to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", I can't say I agree with this conclusion, but Carlos is certainly not the first to make this point. This is an opportunity to engage Carlos in a discussion about the core principles behind Sugar and to examine our own efforts to see how we may be falling short of achieving those principles. "I am happy to see Plan Ceibal is not sleeping and every day is introducing or considering very interesting ideas. I see Portal Ceibal shows information on Khan Academy and Sugata Mitra, among other education ideas that are calling the attention of many people around the world today." cjl - Here Carlos is suggesting that Sugar and an XO laptop alone are not the solution to all problems, a conclusion I heartily agree with. It fails to acknowledge what Sugar and XOs make possible, but I will not quibble there, I will join him in celebrating the ingenuity of local deployments and even children in appropriating the tools they have adopted and reworking them to meet their own needs and desires. At this point I am tempted to shout "Hallelujah" or less aptly "Mission Accomplished". The appropriation of the tools and technology by local communities is the end-game we all seek (I think). cjl - What this leaves out is the sincere desire of Sugar Labs to gather that creative energy back from the deployments and share it with other deployments around the world. Let's be honest in admitting we just don't do this well enough (yet). I myself would like to see OLE Nepal's materials translated into English and hosted on Pootle for anyone to localize into their language of choice (just as an example). This returns us to the need for deeper and more meaningful engagement to harvest both the good and the bad from deployments. cjl - Kenneth, that is how I read Carlos's message. It may not be what he really meant to say and he may not like how I characterize some of his points, but this is just my opinion, which you *did* ask for, You just didn't realize that I would actually give it to you :-) cjl <div><div></div><div class="h5">_______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> </div></div></blockquote></div> </div>