<html><head><style type="text/css"></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div>I didn't say "90% fluency", I said to "get 90% of the children to the level of fluency".<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Alan<br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Yamandu Ploskonka <yamaplos@gmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho@hotmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Alan Kay <alan.nemo@yahoo.com>; IAEP SugarLabs <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org>; kksubbu.ml@gmail.com<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, November 2, 2010 12:38:17 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [IAEP] 90% fluency Re: Granny Cloud<br></font><br> For the record, I actually did agree with the guy, and when given a chance to present to that same group one week later, used this very concept together with a picture I took in Nepal of an old gentleman, as part of my talk (and I used Prezi, which was quite impressive... :-)<br> <br> OTOH, agreeing with such way of handling data has seriously messed up with my compass for valid, evidence-based scientific data, which is why my request to understand better what Alan meant by 90% fluency...<br> <br> On 11/02/2010 03:30 PM, Caryl Bigenho wrote: <blockquote type="cite"> <style></style>Hi All... <div><br> </div> <div>A bit of family history to shed light on my opinion on this...</div> <div><br> </div> <div> <div style="text-indent: 0px;">My Irish great-grandmother was unable to read and write when her first children were born, back in the 1860's (she was born at the start of the Potato Famine). She signed their birth certificates with an "X." Within a couple of years of that (probable embarrassment) she was able to sign her name. By 1904, when the only photo I have seen of her was taken (just before she died), she posed with a book... a la Whistler's Mother. And I have a copy of a letter she wrote in the late 1890's. Being able to sign her name was the first step on her road to literacy. It can be the same for the folks in Bolivia, or anywhere else... regardless of their age.</div> <div style="text-indent: 0px;"><br style="text-indent: 0px;"> </div> <div style="text-indent: 0px;">Caryl<br style="text-indent: 0px;"> </div> <br> <hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:12:36 -0500<br> From: <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:yamaplos@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:yamaplos@gmail.com">yamaplos@gmail.com</a><br> To: <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:alan.nemo@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:alan.nemo@yahoo.com">alan.nemo@yahoo.com</a><br> CC: <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org">iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>; <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:kksubbu.ml@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:kksubbu.ml@gmail.com">kksubbu.ml@gmail.com</a><br> Subject: [IAEP] 90% fluency Re: Granny Cloud<br> <br> When I was in Bolivia recently I happened to be present at a rather high-level meeting where the matter of the literacy rate of Ecuador was being discussed, and criticism of those critisizing it got criticized - apparently UNICEF or one other such agency had disputed a 1% gain claimed by the government, who then had to retract its figures.<br> <br> The main point had to do with "the breach". Apparently or so we were told, you can and should be able to count success in literacy even in cases that all you have been able to achieve with that 70-year-old peasant was to get him to recognize his name, or write it when prompted, and people who don't count that as a gain in absolute literacy figures for the country are plain evil imperialist capitalistic goons or their equivalent.<br> <br> In this context it surprises me less that many projects simply are not interested in cause-effect research, based in objective data, regarding OLPC or any of such. Qualitative research is in, as valid and acceptable, and so is perception-based data and interviews rather than actual event/fact observation, and technicalities are used to debunk data-based reports (this later actually might be fair, if they play by the rules).<br> <br> Because we do not have suitably globally agreed-on scales and answers, answers that are consistent at the same time with evidence-based research, political correctness, and respect for the downtrodden, we are a bit stuck when it comes to say if we are - where? - somewhere...<br> <br> As to myself, I will not dispute the claims by our President, Evo Morales, and his government, that we have, in Bolivia, achieved 100% literacy. There are, so I've been told by some of the very people who have arrived to that number, solid reasons and evidence that shows such an excellent goal and need has been met.<br> <br> Now, y'all at PARC, do you have some definitions that clarify what it is they meant by 90% fluency?<br> They are crucial, no doubt... is that like 10% less than 100%?<br> <br> <br> <br> As to drop making technology available for the top quartiles just because the low quartile is not getting any benefit, I have no words.<br> <br> It is very nice to want to close the breach, to want to help the least, but if the only way to more equality is by setting up a lower ceiling for those who actually could benefit at the least cost, then we are totally messed up, it certainly is NOT unimportant.<br> <br> A colleague in the Sur list was mentioning "residual cognitive benefits" in the form of new brain circuits. When I think on how much more expensive it is to get a good education to a kid with low socioeconomics than it is to a better-off one, besides the whole issue of context I worry on how we do not realize the consequences, importance and additional cost to go that extra mile - and in doing so, refrain from discriminating against those who do not need all of that effort, those whose 2-parent households get hit by taxes and their own expenses as they do some of the push. I know it gets silly very fast, but in real world terms, let us not pretend we are surprised by the higher XO breakage rates among urban poor kids in Uruguay, or the low breakage amongst the even poorer in Nepal, when we know that one of those pretends that equality happens by saying so, and the other carefully builds and together with the interested parties prepares for difficult scenarios.<br> <br> Alas, <br> <br> Yama<br> <br> <br> <br> On 11/02/2010 10:51 AM, Alan Kay wrote: <blockquote> <style> .ExternalClass DIV {} </style> <div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div>To me, this is the main point.<br> <br> Years ago (at PARC) we decided that in any meaningful world, we needed to help 90% of the learners achieve real fluency (or judge our methods to be not good enough). Both the "90%" and "real fluency" are crucial (the latter is often abandoned when the former is held to be important).<br> <br> Cheers,<br> <br> Alan<br> </div> <div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"> <hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> K. K. Subramaniam <a rel="nofollow" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:kksubbu.ml@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:kksubbu.ml@gmail.com"><kksubbu.ml@gmail.com></a><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org">iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, November 2, 2010 7:45:47 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [IAEP] Granny Cloud<br> </font><br> On Tuesday 02 Nov 2010 8:17:34 am Caryl Bigenho wrote:<br> > Hi All...<br> > Here is a concise article that summarizes Sugata Mitra's work with the<br> > "Granny Cloud." Note he says a 1 to 1 model doesn't work. He uses 4 to 1.<br> <span><span>> <a target="_blank" href="http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2010/07/29/granny-cloud-to-teach-children-via">http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2010/07/29/granny-cloud-to-teach-children-via</a>-</span></span><br> > the-internet/<br> I would be wary of reaching any specific conclusion from such experiments. This <br> is not to discourage new experiments but to highlight the fact the need of the <br> hours are interventions that ensures that the number of students who are *not <br> learning* should provably *decrease* during a three year window.<br> <br> When we throw technology X or method Y at the education problem and make the <br> top two quartiles learn better but leave the bottom quartile out cold, then <br> such a tech/method is a nice but unimportant development for tacking education <br> issues we face today.<br> <br> Subbu<br> _______________________________________________<br> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br> <span><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a></span></span><br> </div> </div> </div> <br> <pre><fieldset class="ecxmimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) <a rel="nofollow" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a></pre> </blockquote> <br> _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a></div> <pre><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a></pre> </blockquote> </div></div> </div><br> </body></html>