<html><head><style type="text/css"></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div>Hi Caroline,<br><br>I think that each of them is at its best for just a few years. Each of them was specifically designed (for different reasons) for relatively short term use.<br><br>Etoys can be used longer, but mostly because it also has a particle system, and an integrated media system. Still, I think that the programming system should be done a bit differently for good use over a 5 or more year period.<br><br>I think that a new system needs to be designed and made that is set for much more longitudinal learning (and we are trying to get funding to attempt to make such a system).<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Alan<br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Caroline Meeks <caroline@solutiongrove.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Dr. Gerald Ardito <gerald.ardito@gmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Alan Kay <alan.nemo@yahoo.com>; Cherry Withers <cwithers@ekindling.org>; danielgastelu@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara <paperless@timmcnamara.co.nz>; Steve Thomas <stevesargon@gmail.com>; iaep <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, September 27, 2010 4:46:45 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?<br></font><br> First let me say that based on my experience working with second and third graders in an inner city public school, eToys, Scratch and Turtle Art, none of them are inherently too difficult for elementary school children, especially with 1:1 help at the start and all of them have the potential to be very engaging.<div> <br></div><div>But we can still think about what makes it easiest and gives us the best ramp up at which age levels.</div><div><br></div><div><span>When I think about challenge I am thinking about it in terms of game design.  Like the graph on this page: <a target="_blank" href="http://mashable.com/2010/07/13/game-mechanics-business/">http://mashable.com/2010/07/13/game-mechanics-business/</a></span></div> <div><br></div><div><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://mashable.com/2010/07/13/game-mechanics-business/"></a>Game designers think there is an optimal level of challenge at each point to keep people engaged.</div><div><br></div><div>So my hypothesis is that in 5th grade the drawing in eToys is in that optimal zone, of not too challenging but not boring either. However, by 8th grade the drawing is falling toward the boring side and the bricks are in that optimal zone of challenge.</div> <div><br></div><div>Another question is, once they have gotten engaged and past that first session, to a "hello world" sort of level, which system makes it easiest to progress and learn?  Which is best for which learning goals and content areas?  Just because kids like it better on Day 1 doesn't mean that system will be a superior learning tool two months later.</div> <div><br></div><div>Which is sort of a long +1 to Gerald that challenge is good. I was incredibly impressed with students ability and willingness to keep applying effort in working with content and concepts that challenged them.  That is a key part of learning to learn.</div> <div><br></div><div>Cheers </div><div>Caroline</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Dr. Gerald Ardito <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:gerald.ardito@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:gerald.ardito@gmail.com">gerald.ardito@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Alan,<br><br>First, I just want to clarify that I meant "challenged" in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too.<br> <br>Our learning situation involved 4-6 student "experts" with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these "experts" were free to move around the room helping other students.<br> <br>We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough.<br> <br>Thanks.<br><font color="#888888">Gerald</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:alan.nemo@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:alan.nemo@yahoo.com">alan.nemo@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div>I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any "challenged" 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use "a spreading wave" of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass.<br> <br>So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of "challenged" students result from such artifacts).<br><br>Cheers,<br><font color="#888888"><br>Alan<br></font></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><div><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Dr. Gerald Ardito <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:gerald.ardito@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:gerald.ardito@gmail.com">gerald.ardito@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Caroline Meeks <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:caroline@solutiongrove.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:caroline@solutiongrove.com">caroline@solutiongrove.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Cherry Withers <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cwithers@ekindling.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:cwithers@ekindling.org">cwithers@ekindling.org</a>>; <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:danielgastelu@yahoo.com.ar" target="_blank" href="mailto:danielgastelu@yahoo.com.ar">danielgastelu@yahoo.com.ar</a>; Tim McNamara <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:paperless@timmcnamara.co.nz" target="_blank" href="mailto:paperless@timmcnamara.co.nz">paperless@timmcnamara.co.nz</a>>; Steve Thomas <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stevesargon@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:stevesargon@gmail.com">stevesargon@gmail.com</a>>; iaep <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org">iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM</div><div><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?<br></div> </font><div><div></div><div><br> Caroline,<br><br>You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis.<br><br>The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of "painting" of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process.<br> <br>I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that.<br><br>Thanks.<br>Gerald<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:caroline@solutiongrove.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:caroline@solutiongrove.com">caroline@solutiongrove.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders.<div> <br></div><div>Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering.</div><div><br></div><div>I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more.</div> <div><br></div><div>Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. </div> <div> <br></div><div>On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch.</div><div><br></div><div>This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further.<br> <br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:echerlin@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:echerlin@gmail.com">echerlin@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in.<br> <div><div></div><div><br> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stevesargon@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:stevesargon@gmail.com">stevesargon@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> > Edward,<br> > Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more<br> > "easily discoverable" and I will work on it.<br> > Stephen<br> ><br> > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:echerlin@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:echerlin@gmail.com">echerlin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> >><br> >> It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know<br> >> where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could<br> >> be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other<br> >> education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more<br> >> introductory modules.<br> >><br> >> Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover<br> >> these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the<br> >> middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point<br> >> is my Wiki page,<br> >><br><span><span> >> <a target="_blank" href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable</a></span></span><br> >><br><span><span> >> <a target="_blank" href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick</a></span></span><br> >> The undiscoverable  is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and<br> >> solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find.<br> >> These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS<br> >> documentation.<br> >><br> >> The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind,<br> >> which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it.<br> >><br> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:paperless@timmcnamara.co.nz" target="_blank" href="mailto:paperless@timmcnamara.co.nz">paperless@timmcnamara.co.nz</a>><br> >> wrote:<br> >> > The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things in<br> >> > all<br> >> > of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each Activity<br> >> > can<br> >> > be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike.<br> >> ><br> >> > Tim<br> >> ><br> >> > On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cwithers@ekindling.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:cwithers@ekindling.org">cwithers@ekindling.org</a>><br> >> > wrote:<br> >> >><br> >> >> And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it,  but it sounded<br> >> >> logical<br> >> >> to me.<br> >> >> Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult tasks.<br> >> >> To confirm this statement,  I add the phrase: "Visible learning,<br> >> >> invisible<br> >> >> technology".<br> >> >> Children would first learn TurtleArt.<br> >> >> When they outgrow it switch to Scratch.<br> >> >> When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys.<br> >> ><br> >> > _______________________________________________<br> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br> >> > <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br><span><span> >> > <a target="_blank" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a></span></span><br> >> ><br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >> --<br> >> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin<br> >> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.<br> >> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.<br><span><span> >> <a target="_blank" href="http://www.earthtreasury.org/">http://www.earthtreasury.org/</a></span></span><br> >> _______________________________________________<br> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br> >> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br> >> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a><br> ><br> <br> <br> <br> </div></div>--<br> <div><div></div><div>Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin<br> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.<br> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.<br> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.earthtreasury.org/">http://www.earthtreasury.org/</a><br> _______________________________________________<br> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Caroline Meeks<br>Solution Grove<br> Caroline@SolutionGrove.com<br> <br>617-500-3488 - Office<br>505-213-3268 - Fax<br> </div> </blockquote></div><br> </div></div></div></div> </div><br> </div></blockquote></div><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Caroline Meeks<br>Solution Grove<br>Caroline@SolutionGrove.com<br><br>617-500-3488 - Office<br>505-213-3268 - Fax<br> </div> </div></div> </div><br> </body></html>