<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <STYLE type=text/css>DIV { MARGIN: 0px } </STYLE> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>Listen, I don't want to argue with Alan Kay.  Obviously I'm not as smart nor have I been at it as long as him (I googled him and watched 3 different videos - amazing!).  My job is to set the record straight.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>1. "<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>Tim Gallwey is one of the best teachers I've ever observed, and he had a number of extremely effective techniques to help his students learn the real deal very quickly (and almost none of these were direct instruction..."  </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>I would be willing to bet $10 (I'm cheap, alright?) that Mr. Gallwey has used the principles of Direct Instruction to teach.  I'd love to see Mr Gallwey teach a child with autism, developmental disability, or speech/communication issue how to talk, ask questions, etc. without Direct Instruction/Applied Behavior Analysis.  About 1-3% of the educational students have serious learning issues and about 17% have undiagnosed "learning disabilities" that make these students fail in current constructionist educational system.  In all, there are an average of 13% students in special ed, some of which are there simply because they can't read. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>2. "<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>At levels below these two, we are talking about areas of study that are neither about literacy nor about mathematics, but something else. The something else could be useful (for example, reading street signs and goods in stores, or adding up simple sums)."</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense.  Below heady levels of learning ARE the basics - arithmetic and literacy (learning to read).</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>3. "<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3> However, part of the real deal is being able to *do* the pursuits, not just know something about them..."</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>Direct Instruction and Applied Behavior Analysis actually require the ability to generalize what you have learned to new situations.  The do not preclude activities to generalize concepts.  Often, however, activities are foregone due to time constraints - which is unfortunate.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>If students are not generalizing, the "Analysis" part should indicate "ooops, I messed up as a teacher."  I've done it myself when my son's therapists realized (to their surprise) that he forgot the meaning of bigger and smaller.  The items used to teach these concepts were limited to one exemplar and it did not get generalized.  We then moved the program to a more natural environment (think Helen Keller going around and touching things in the room) and voila, the problem was solved.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>4. "<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>My main complaint about most schooling processes whether official or grassroots is that for a wide variety of reasons they settle for the "something else" rather than try to find ways to help the students learn the real deals."</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>Yes, and watching kids struggle in class, say they are stupid, practice avoidance behavior due curriculum and teacher aversions is NO FUN.  It is easily solvable by putting kids in appropriate curriculum that lets them succeed.  I saw it with my fourth graders (and some fifth) more times than I care to admit in a short 12 week period.  It was very sad so see 2 out of 24 of my fourth grade students completely, 100%, illiterate and about 20% illiterate enough to be unable to comprehend what they were reading.  And this was at the most elite school in the town.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>I'm not religious about DI but I have to fight for it everywhere to simply be considered, included, or even considered as an option.  In my state, constructivism is so rampant that when I mention DI I get treated like the red headed step child.  And so does the option of Direct Instruction because, you see, the dirty little secret is that DI is not really an option at all.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=430540114-06052009>-Kathy</SPAN></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> iaep-bounces@lists.sugarlabs.org [mailto:iaep-bounces@lists.sugarlabs.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Alan Kay<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 06, 2009 6:27 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Bill Kerr; Walter Bender<BR><B>Cc:</B> iaep; Sugar-dev Devel; community-news@lists.sugarlabs.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [IAEP] versus, not<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif"> <DIV>My take on this over the years has excluded labels and categories for a variety of reasons.<BR><BR>But I do think thresholds are important for most areas of learning. For example, at what level would an actually literate person consider a high school graduate to be fluent in literate actions and thinking? At what level would a mathematician consider a high school graduate fluent in mathematical actions and thinking? This is very different from asking questions about the level that a professional would need to attain. At levels below these two, we are talking about areas of study that are neither about literacy nor about mathematics, but something else. The something else could be useful (for example, reading street signs and goods in stores, or adding up simple sums).<BR><BR>My main complaint about most schooling processes whether official or grassroots is that for a wide variety of reasons they settle for the "something else" rather than try to find ways to help the students learn the real deals.<BR><BR>If the real deals are chosen, then the interesting question is what kinds of processes will work for what kinds of learners? If it is some non-trivial percentage of direct instruction, then this is what should be done (and depending on the learner, this percentage could range from 0% to a surprisingly high number). However, part of the real deal is being able to *do* the pursuits, not just know something about them, so all pedagogical approaches will have to find ways to get learners to learn how to do what practitioners do who above the two thresholds of "fluency" and "pro".<BR><BR>Tim Gallwey is one of the best teachers I've ever observed, and he had a number of extremely effective techniques to help his students learn the real deal very quickly (and almost none of these were direct instruction -- partly because, as he liked to say, "The parts of the brain that you need to do the learning very often don't understand English!"). But if he could see that the student had gotten on a track that couldn't be influenced by "guided discovery", then he would instantly tell them to "do it this way". In other words, he was not religious about his own very successful method, but instead did what his students individually needed and that worked the best for them (which happened to be "learning by doing").<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>Alan<BR></DIV> <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif"><BR> <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2> <HR SIZE=1> <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Bill Kerr <billkerr@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Walter Bender <walter.bender@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> iaep <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org>; Sugar-dev Devel <sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org>; community-news@lists.sugarlabs.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, May 4, 2009 5:20:50 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [IAEP] versus, not<BR></FONT><BR> <DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Walter Bender <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">===Sugar Digest===<BR><BR>I encourage you to join two threads on the Education List this week:<BR><SPAN><A href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-April/005382.html" target=_blank>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-April/005382.html</A>, which</SPAN><BR>has boiled down to an instruction vs construction debate; and<BR><SPAN><A href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-April/005342.html" target=_blank>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-April/005342.html</A>, which</SPAN><BR>has boiled down to a debate of catering to local culture vs the<BR>Enlightenment. I encourage you to join these discussions.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>Agree that these are important discussions <BR><BR>Need to be careful about the use of the versus depiction of these discussions IMO, this tempting shorthand can create the wrong impression<BR><BR>eg. I would see direct instruction as a must for autistic children but don't see that it follows as a general model for all education (special needs are special) or that we should even think it is possible to have a correct general model. I don't think there is one and good teachers swap between multiple models all the time.<BR><BR>no one on this list has argued overtly against  "the enlightenment" or that local culture ought not to be taken into account, eg. Ties said "think practical", the response was of the nature that our context demands we do <a certain course of action><BR><BR><SPAN>however, I do think the roll back of enlightenment principles is not well understood (<A href="http://learningevolves.wikispaces.com/nonUniversals" target=_blank>http://learningevolves.wikispaces.com/nonUniversals</A>) and that a  better understanding might persuade more people of the need to keep searching and struggling for different ways to go against some of  the tide of local culture - there is a recent interesting comment thread on mark guzdial's blog which is worth reading from this point of view <A href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK3F4TMBURELZZK" target=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK3F4TMBURELZZK</A> </SPAN><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>