hi rob, thanks for making this a real discussion <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Costello, Rob R <<a href="mailto:Costello.Rob.R@edumail.vic.gov.au">Costello.Rob.R@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-AU"> <div> Hi Bill   Agree, many adults, who balk at compulsory censorship for adults, still think there is a place for protecting children   I'm one of them   A while ago you could walk into any computer lab in our school and you may have found half of the kids playing a first person shooter; gunning down each other's avatar in virtual space, with graphic kill effects   Its an uncomfortable feeling when any spare time (or time that students choose to make spare) ends up being used like this - and as an educator responsible for the network, not one I was willing to promote  (and not one I'd be keen to defend if parents had questioned it) </div></div></blockquote><div> This is getting into issues of how schools operate at present with existing computer labs My position on this one is that the teacher ought to be keeping kids on task during lesson time - and that teachers who understand computing can (a)  make lessons more interesting (b) have the knowledge such as checking task bar etc. to be able to do this, not all of the time, but for most of the time Layout of computers in the room is a big factor here. It's much easier for teacher to monitor what students are doing (highly desirable) if computers are setup up around the walls all facing inwards There is a curious / interesting factor at work here though in computer labs and in school in general. Increasingly electronic media are pervasive in classrooms and schools - mobile phones, mp3 players etc - and increasingly students are attempting to use them or use them in sorts of ways that teachers don't want (including me). This is a very big question about the whole nature of freedom and education, too large to comprehensively discuss in one post here but very worthwhile of further discussion IMO btw techs at my school are talking about introducing equipment which is capable of monitoring what is on every screen of every computer in the school - it exists but I haven't bothered to look into the details wrt game playing -  my position used to be that students ought to be able to play some games at lunchtimes in computer labs (no longer an issue since we have stopped opening labs at lunchtime) As you point out it can easily become a shooting parlour and hard to manage and justify to parents - and distracting to kids who are there to do schoolwork - again an interesting and important and long discussion, which has to be had ... sometime also, I introduced game making into my courses a few years ago and this created some tensions within the school, eg. some teachers were not happy with my students playing games that they had made in the resource centre at lunchtimes, because games were banned there Some teachers had put up signs in computer rooms, "No Game Alllowed" and I had to point out that it was ridiculous that students could make games and in theory not be allowed test them out Anyway, none of these issues were fully resolved, the tensions persisted - although I have moved away from a major emphasis on game making for other reasons - but my students do still make some games,  mainly using Scratch these days (formerly they used Game Maker)   </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-AU"><div>  While we hadn't installed any of this on the network, the issue was that the games could be run off USB sticks, and networked together nicely on that basis, even from the students restricted accounts  (and I hope Sugar installation and network detection gets that easy)</div></div></blockquote><div> mmm ... USB sticks, handy things ... enabled me to use Opera browser at school as well as Sugar ... techs are just too busy to keep up with my interests as I try to work them into the curriculum but the bootable USB stick does provide a solution satisfactory to everyone (more or less) </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-AU"><div>  As a solution, we blocked executable files running off USBs…and I don't think a single student has complained about losing any other functionality  (we excepted the programming class who were building executables)</div></div></blockquote><div> ditto for my school, executables blocked, except for certain situations the fact that students haven't complained about losing rights doesn't actually prove much ... students come to accept the fact that schools have lots of rules and regulations despite the fact that at least some of those rules and regulations don't make a lot of sense to some adults </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-AU"><div>  Booting into Sugar would still have worked though [as the blocking policy operated once the other OS had loaded]   Another teacher friend downloaded a range of flash games so there were some valid alternatives if students did want that sort of passive distraction   My own interest is getting kids to take control, rather than play games…. I decompile some of the flash games and show them how to tweak parameters to change the effects etc  - change the gravity in Dolphin Olympics; show them the maths behind the scenes here etc</div></div></blockquote><div> I have argued on and off for many years that game making is a good educational way to tap into the interests students have for game playing But I think there are good arguments for game playing too, notably those put forward by James Gee I haven't noticed any discussion at all on this list about why there are so many game activities on Sugar and what is their educational rationale  </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-AU"><div>  my tangential comment on thin clients and censorship, is that there are valid issues here; and I don't intend to have my own children, or students, trump me by quoting the UN rights of the child</div></div></blockquote><div>If a student did quote you the UN charter then you would have to credit them for an ability to construct a well researched argument at least ;-) At any rate I quote the UN charter because I agree with it The strong argument is that there is no replacement for good parenting, the central factor being maintaining a good relationship and conversation - granted that can happen with the computer at home being in the lounge, it can also happen with a computer being in the child's room I don't think the internet is a dangerous place - but it is full of distractions and I do want kids to be able to read deeply and slowly because that is very important for learning How do we best manage that today? Another hard question which I won't answer today </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-AU"><div>  I don't know of any school that would install pornography or graphic violence in the school library, or pre-install such on the local network,  under the name of the rights of the child to access information </div></div></blockquote><div>I would never argue for the rights of a child to access porn at school - but I see it as an issue mainly to do with classroom management - teachers have a curriculum to teach and they need to learn ways to do that effectively I do have a problem with google images being blocked because some kids access porn and it is hard or impossible to prevent -  a resource which is mainly positive is blocked because of a failure of management </div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-AU"><div>  Our own ideas of the high road and freedom don't go there (at least, mine don't) …- and so we shouldn't be surprised if many want to influence childrens access to these resources on remote networks …possibly inconsistent to do otherwise  </div></div></blockquote><div>I see enormous benefits arising from children having access to and the opportunity to immerse themselves in the use of personal computers - a universal turing networked machine becomes the new playground of learning and what Doug Engelbart called "collective IQ" Once again this is a long discussion and I won't attempt all the details at this point, but I think the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages Happy to discuss further - it is an issue that impacts very directly onto childs use of netbooks and free software such as Sugar This argument -- that the internet is a place we have to protect children from -- will become the main argument against the widespread distribution of netbooks and free software to children in educational settings The technology increasingly moves us towards personal and individual empowerment; the moral argument that freedom is too dangerous to handle moves us in the opposite direction  </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-AU"><div>   Cheers   Rob   <div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;"> <div> <div style="text-align: center;" align="center"> <hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"> </div> From: <a href="mailto:iaep-bounces@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">iaep-bounces@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:iaep-bounces@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">iaep-bounces@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>] On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Saturday, 13 December 2008 11:21 AM To: Samuel Klein Cc: <a href="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>; Paul T Subject: Re: [IAEP] Ncomputing and freedom of the child </div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">   tech considerations aside part of the appeal (in india and elsewhere) would be control, the computers stay in the labs, don't go home where students can then surf for porn etc. we are in the middle of a mandatory adult internet censorship battle in australia - enormous resistance and the government seems to be losing, thankfully however, I know many adult educators who don't support mandatory adult censorship but who nevertheless do advocate strongly that computers at home should not be in kids bedrooms, they should be in the lounge so that adults can constantly monitor their childrens surfing Not a practice that I supported for my own child and which I think goes counter to the UN Convention on the rights of the child: <h4 style="margin-left: 30pt;">Article 13</h4> <div style="margin-left: 30pt;"> 1. The child shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of the child's choice. <a href="http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/k2crc.htm" target="_blank">http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/k2crc.htm</a> </div> neverthless, although we are winning the adult censorship battle in australia - thanks to great leadership by Electronic Frontiers Australia and ISPs like internode who have refused to participate in the phony trial - don't underestimate the argument of many adults who do not think that children should have genuine ownership of a personal computer - and all the benefits that brings - due to the alleged risks of surfing the internet without close and constant supervision even some australian child care organisations are now coming out and opposing Conroy's digital counter revolution (play on Rudd governments election promise of a digital revolution with faster broadband and a laptop for every child years 9-12, still waiting and they won't be laptops) <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/news/technology/childrens-welfare-groups-slam-net-filters/2008/11/28/1227491813497.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1" target="_blank">http://www.theage.com.au/news/technology/childrens-welfare-groups-slam-net-filters/2008/11/28/1227491813497.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1</a> if n-computing works then its advocates would argue: 1) cheaper 2) more control over what kids see Not sure about the cost issue but on point (2) it looks like we are stuck with having to argue that freedom for children is a good thing, well, lets hope we can win that one :-) no point in taking the low road when the high road is the only available option <div> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Samuel Klein <<a href="http://meta.sj" target="_blank">meta.sj</a>@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>> wrote: Ncomputing is certainly not greener than using XOs, except perhaps for the part where you use computers in a comp. lab less than you use a portable laptop. But [no accounting] it's popular.  It lets you use existing monitor and sysadmin infrastructure.  And a skole/sugar or ubuntu/sugar setup that runs on Ncomputing labs would rock.  Someone should find out what they currently recommend for the user software stack in an NC lab. It can hardly compare with the sugar activity selection or unified experience. SJ <div> <div> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:13 PM,  <<a href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au" target="_blank">forster@ozonline.com.au</a>> wrote: > We had a similar thin client system in the computer lab of an education conference recently. At least 2 of the sessions could not run as planned because the workstations did not have the functionality of a normal PC. In my case I needed 32M of video memory. > > The same criticism though could be made of any low cost system, there's lots of software you can't run on an OLPC. > > Their claim "since Ncomputing uses only 1 watt of energy (compared to 110 watts for a PC), electricity usage is cut by more than 90%" ignores the power in the monitor, maybe 100W. > > Similarly, the monitor cost may be similar to the cost of an OLPC. The OLPC and its competitors like the eee may be better value. > > >> I had a pissing match with their founder in the WSJ about a year >> ago... I didn't get any straight answers from him about costs or >> learning. But Sugar on their Ubuntu thin client sounds doable. >> >> -walter >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Edward Cherlin <<a href="mailto:echerlin@gmail.com" target="_blank">echerlin@gmail.com</a>> wrote: >> > Has anybody evaluated Ncomputing's claims on cost, power, and the like >> > for school deployments? For example, >> > >> > <a href="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Interview/Stephen_Dukker_CEO_Ncomputing/articleshow/3820649.cms" target="_blank">http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Interview/Stephen_Dukker_CEO_Ncomputing/articleshow/3820649.cms</a> >> > <a href="http://www.ncomputing.com/republic-of-macedonia.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.ncomputing.com/republic-of-macedonia.aspx</a> >> > >> > They run Ubuntu (or Windows) over thin clients, so they could run >> > Sugar once the packaging problems are fixed (The journal currently >> > saves precisely nothing). Has anybody talked with them? >> > >> > -- >> > Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name >> > And Children are my nation. >> > The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. >> > <a href="http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai" target="_blank">http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai</a> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> > <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> >> > <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> >> >> >> >> -- >> Walter Bender >> Sugar Labs >> <a href="http://www.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">http://www.sugarlabs.org</a> >> _______________________________________________ >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> >> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> >> >> _____________________________________________________ >> This mail has been virus scanned by Australia On Line >> see <a href="http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning" target="_blank">http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning</a> > > > _______________________________________________ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> > <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> > _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org" target="_blank">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> </div> </div> </div>   </div></div></div> </div> Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. 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