<div dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Bill Kerr <<a href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com">billkerr@gmail.com</a>> wrote: <div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div dir="ltr"><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <<a href="mailto:tomeu@tomeuvizoso.net" target="_blank">tomeu@tomeuvizoso.net</a>> wrote: <div class="gmail_quote"> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div><div></div><div>On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Bill Kerr <<a href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com" target="_blank">billkerr@gmail.com</a>> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <<a href="mailto:tomeu@tomeuvizoso.net" target="_blank">tomeu@tomeuvizoso.net</a>> wrote: >> >> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Bill Kerr <<a href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com" target="_blank">billkerr@gmail.com</a>> wrote: >> > <a href="http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI" target="_blank">http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI</a> >> > >> > is this useful feedback? >> >> I think it's useful in itself, but there needs to happen quite a bit >> of work before it can be consumed by developers. I guess someone that >> knows the context in which those comments are made could translate >> them to more universally understandable statements, and then someone >> else could aggregate those with other feedback and produce some >> summary from all of that. >> >> > flux, year 10 student australia, has been slack in recording his >> > criticisms >> > (tends to mouth off with a negative but informed tone) but I sat with >> > him >> > and wrote them down myself, insisting on a bit more detail - he's one of >> > two >> > students in the class who knows some linux (more than me) - he felt the >> > xo >> > was lacking compared with other linux distributions >> > >> > XO DISLIKES >> > >> > Slow to load initially >> > Loading (splash) screen for each activity is sad, dull, not worth it >> > Games done cheaply compared with GNOME and KDE games >> > mouse pointer is too big >> > wants ability to replace XO icon with different icons >> > wants ability to create a new background >> > want fluxbox, a better GUI >> > >> > btw I have asked the class to try to put themselves, at least some of >> > the >> > time, into the shoes of a 6-10 yo child from the developing world when >> > providing feedback - but have also said that I want to hear  negatives >> > as >> > well as positives >> >> I'm not sure that's the best POV for useful feedback. I cannot think >> myself of any features of Sugar that are specially targeted to people >> in developing countries and I for one would like to see Sugar evolve >> in an useful platform for all people independently of their age. >> >> If kids are complaining so much about the Sugar Shell means that they >> are "seeing" it too much. Most of the important stuff should happen >> inside activities, not in the Shell. My reaction to that feedback is >> that Sugar should dissolve itself better into the set of installed >> activities (by improving performance, for example) and that activities >> should address better the kids' interests (so they don't need to >> change the shell icons to get some fun). >> >> > (note the final para from death-god, he's not able to think outside the >> > MS >> > paradigm at this point - I plan to do some more talking about these >> > issues >> > next term) >> > >> > one memory that this triggered in me was mark shuttleworths ubuntu >> > manifesto: >> > >> > <a href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/06/mark-shuttleworths-ubuntu-manifesto.html" target="_blank">http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/06/mark-shuttleworths-ubuntu-manifesto.html</a> >> > #13 "pretty" as a feature >> >> My suspect is that conventional desktops have a big dissonance with >> non-office usage, so people spend more time that they would like to in >> the "OS". Because of that, the desktop GUI is important for them and >> they want it to be pretty. If we reduced the components that the user >> needs to interact with, those eliminated components don't need to be >> pretty any more. If we reduce the time that the user needs to spend on >> the rest of the desktop, the importance of their "beauty" is also >> reduced. >> >> Not saying that Mark is wrong nor that Sugar should be ugly, just that >> when we hear that some part of the Sugar shell needs to look nicer or >> be more like traditional desktops, we may want to reflect why is the >> shell taking so much of the user attention and if this isn't an >> opportunity to streamline the experience and take ourselves out of the >> way. > > thanks for comment, Tomeu. I've put it up on the wiki and will attempt to > discuss these issues with the students when we go back to school tomorrow. > (we will have to get our minds back out of holiday mode first, however) > <a href="http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI" target="_blank">http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI</a> > > one thing I have noticed with students who use linux (only a handful at my > school) is that they like the ubuntu rotating cube, they see that as new and > "cool" > > My own thoughts are more in line with what you are saying, that the OS, if > we must have one, ought to be just a way to access the activities, that > pretty is not important. But I do suspect strongly that to attract many > users (who are used to Windows) it is important and that part of the success > of ubuntu is that MarkShuttleworth has picked up on that. </div></div>Agreed, we don't want to sell an OS, but may be forced into that... No idea about what we can do there, other than hiring Apple's marketing department :p</blockquote><div> </div></div> </div></div>I like walter's suggestions on this page: <a href="http://en.flossmanuals.net/Sugar/ModifyingSugar" target="_blank">http://en.flossmanuals.net/Sugar/ModifyingSugar</a> tweaking the interface as an option - for both empowerment and skill building I'll give it a go but fear that most students won't have the patience or carefulness to hack the python code successfully, a few will give it a shot but many will be easily discouraged (trying to think of a way to make it a bit more accessible to more) </div> </blockquote></div> actually on a closer look walter's modifying sugar tutorial does provide quite a few low level entry points into - hacking SVG python linux that's a lot of pluses </div>