<div dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Bill Kerr <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com">billkerr@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr"><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tomeu@tomeuvizoso.net" target="_blank">tomeu@tomeuvizoso.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div></div><div>On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Bill Kerr <<a href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com" target="_blank">billkerr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <<a href="mailto:tomeu@tomeuvizoso.net" target="_blank">tomeu@tomeuvizoso.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Bill Kerr <<a href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com" target="_blank">billkerr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> > <a href="http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI" target="_blank">http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > is this useful feedback?<br>
>><br>
>> I think it's useful in itself, but there needs to happen quite a bit<br>
>> of work before it can be consumed by developers. I guess someone that<br>
>> knows the context in which those comments are made could translate<br>
>> them to more universally understandable statements, and then someone<br>
>> else could aggregate those with other feedback and produce some<br>
>> summary from all of that.<br>
>><br>
>> > flux, year 10 student australia, has been slack in recording his<br>
>> > criticisms<br>
>> > (tends to mouth off with a negative but informed tone) but I sat with<br>
>> > him<br>
>> > and wrote them down myself, insisting on a bit more detail - he's one of<br>
>> > two<br>
>> > students in the class who knows some linux (more than me) - he felt the<br>
>> > xo<br>
>> > was lacking compared with other linux distributions<br>
>> ><br>
>> > XO DISLIKES<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Slow to load initially<br>
>> > Loading (splash) screen for each activity is sad, dull, not worth it<br>
>> > Games done cheaply compared with GNOME and KDE games<br>
>> > mouse pointer is too big<br>
>> > wants ability to replace XO icon with different icons<br>
>> > wants ability to create a new background<br>
>> > want fluxbox, a better GUI<br>
>> ><br>
>> > btw I have asked the class to try to put themselves, at least some of<br>
>> > the<br>
>> > time, into the shoes of a 6-10 yo child from the developing world when<br>
>> > providing feedback - but have also said that I want to hear negatives<br>
>> > as<br>
>> > well as positives<br>
>><br>
>> I'm not sure that's the best POV for useful feedback. I cannot think<br>
>> myself of any features of Sugar that are specially targeted to people<br>
>> in developing countries and I for one would like to see Sugar evolve<br>
>> in an useful platform for all people independently of their age.<br>
>><br>
>> If kids are complaining so much about the Sugar Shell means that they<br>
>> are "seeing" it too much. Most of the important stuff should happen<br>
>> inside activities, not in the Shell. My reaction to that feedback is<br>
>> that Sugar should dissolve itself better into the set of installed<br>
>> activities (by improving performance, for example) and that activities<br>
>> should address better the kids' interests (so they don't need to<br>
>> change the shell icons to get some fun).<br>
>><br>
>> > (note the final para from death-god, he's not able to think outside the<br>
>> > MS<br>
>> > paradigm at this point - I plan to do some more talking about these<br>
>> > issues<br>
>> > next term)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > one memory that this triggered in me was mark shuttleworths ubuntu<br>
>> > manifesto:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > <a href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/06/mark-shuttleworths-ubuntu-manifesto.html" target="_blank">http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/06/mark-shuttleworths-ubuntu-manifesto.html</a><br>
>> > #13 "pretty" as a feature<br>
>><br>
>> My suspect is that conventional desktops have a big dissonance with<br>
>> non-office usage, so people spend more time that they would like to in<br>
>> the "OS". Because of that, the desktop GUI is important for them and<br>
>> they want it to be pretty. If we reduced the components that the user<br>
>> needs to interact with, those eliminated components don't need to be<br>
>> pretty any more. If we reduce the time that the user needs to spend on<br>
>> the rest of the desktop, the importance of their "beauty" is also<br>
>> reduced.<br>
>><br>
>> Not saying that Mark is wrong nor that Sugar should be ugly, just that<br>
>> when we hear that some part of the Sugar shell needs to look nicer or<br>
>> be more like traditional desktops, we may want to reflect why is the<br>
>> shell taking so much of the user attention and if this isn't an<br>
>> opportunity to streamline the experience and take ourselves out of the<br>
>> way.<br>
><br>
> thanks for comment, Tomeu. I've put it up on the wiki and will attempt to<br>
> discuss these issues with the students when we go back to school tomorrow.<br>
> (we will have to get our minds back out of holiday mode first, however)<br>
> <a href="http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI" target="_blank">http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI</a><br>
><br>
> one thing I have noticed with students who use linux (only a handful at my<br>
> school) is that they like the ubuntu rotating cube, they see that as new and<br>
> "cool"<br>
><br>
> My own thoughts are more in line with what you are saying, that the OS, if<br>
> we must have one, ought to be just a way to access the activities, that<br>
> pretty is not important. But I do suspect strongly that to attract many<br>
> users (who are used to Windows) it is important and that part of the success<br>
> of ubuntu is that MarkShuttleworth has picked up on that.<br>
<br>
</div></div>Agreed, we don't want to sell an OS, but may be forced into that...<br>
<br>
No idea about what we can do there, other than hiring Apple's<br>
marketing department :p</blockquote><div><br></div></div><br></div></div>I like walter's suggestions on this page:<br><a href="http://en.flossmanuals.net/Sugar/ModifyingSugar" target="_blank">http://en.flossmanuals.net/Sugar/ModifyingSugar</a><br>
<br>tweaking the interface as an option - for both empowerment and skill building<br><br>I'll give it a go but fear that most students won't have the patience or carefulness to hack the python code successfully, a few will give it a shot but many will be easily discouraged <br>
(trying to think of a way to make it a bit more accessible to more)<br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br>actually on a closer look walter's modifying sugar tutorial does provide quite a few low level entry points into -<br>hacking<br>SVG<br>python<br>linux <br><br>that's a lot of pluses <br>
<br>
</div>