On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Costello, Rob R <<a href="mailto:Costello.Rob.R@edumail.vic.gov.au">Costello.Rob.R@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>> wrote: > what should the ""reconstructed mathematics" look like? I wrote a review of a Papert paper about this in April <a href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2008/04/maths-should-evolve-with-computers.html">http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2008/04/maths-should-evolve-with-computers.html</a> (I describe the Papert paper as very interesting but all over the place in terms of its presentation) <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Costello, Rob R <<a href="mailto:Costello.Rob.R@edumail.vic.gov.au">Costello.Rob.R@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">[impatient developers worried about too much talking and not enough doing might want to skip this teacher question] The relationship of mathematics to programming is of interest Brian Harvey has made some of his text books available online and he says, in the preface to one of them (<a href="http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/%7Ebh/v1ch0/preface.html" target="_blank">http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/v1ch0/preface.html</a> ) that : "(If you like programming, but you hate mathematics, don't panic. In that case it's not really mathematics you hate, it's school. The programming you enjoy is much more like real mathematics than the stuff you get in most high school math classes.) In these books I try to encourage this sort of formal thinking by discussing programming in terms of general rules rather than as a bag of tricks." Papert of course had strong views on this - that school maths was too dry, and that playing with the turtle gave even young students access to ideas like vector calculus, in a more intuitive way, without the formalism normally associated with these ideas Similarly Alan Kay, ("The real computer revolution hasn't happened yet" ) "One of the realizations we had about computers in the 60s was that they give rise to new and more powerful forms of arguments about many important issuses via dynamic simulations. That is, instead of making the fairly dry claims that can be stated in prose and mathematical equations, the computer could carry out the implications of the claims to provide a better sense of whether the claims constituted a worthwhile model of reality. And, if the general literacy of the future could include the writing of these new kinds of claims and not just the consumption (reading) of them, then we would have something like the next 500 year invention after the printing press that could very likely change human thought for the better." <a href="http://www.vpri.org/pdf/Pisa_RN_2007_007_a.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.vpri.org/pdf/Pisa_RN_2007_007_a.pdf</a> these ideas are congenial to me .... tasted something of this in my own schooling ... <a href="http://thinkingcurriculum.decenturl.com/corridor" target="_blank">http://thinkingcurriculum.decenturl.com/corridor</a> as a teacher I've wondered why we don't make more use of the overlap between maths and programming .... and have tinkered with such <a href="http://www.thinkingcurriculum.com/thoughts/?s=lineRider" target="_blank">http://www.thinkingcurriculum.com/thoughts/?s=lineRider</a> But .... I'd also like to round this out with a question / reflection Programming, in itself, with variables and functions, is not quite maths, is it? Or ... does not seem to map very directly against traditional curriculum Is the problem traditional curriculum? Papert (Mindstorms): Faced with the heritage of school, math education can take two approaches. The traditional approach accepts school math as a given entity and struggles to find ways to teach it. Some educators use computers for this purpose. Thus, paradoxically, the most common use of the computer in education has become force-feeding indigestible material left over from the precomputer epoch. In Turtle geometry the computer has a totally different use. There the computer is used as a mathematically expressive medium, one that frees us to design personally meaningful and intellectually coherent and easily learnable mathematical topics for children. Instead of posing the educational problem as "how to teach the existing school math," we pose it as "reconstructing mathematics," or more generally, as reconstructing knowledge in such a way that no great effort is needed to teach it. If is so - what should the ""reconstructed mathematics" look like? Much more modelling? What sort / style of programming helps? What sort of thinking involved in mapping programming / modelling onto maths, generally? Do we have to convince educational authorities to respect recursive experiments in Scratch/Logo (which my year 8 students enjoyed) for example, as what maths thinking "really is" ... Alan Kay talks of wrestling with creating suitable models that span teacher and kid skills, allow some learning from both, and get at deep maths .... j Assessment systems in the western world are also not very tailored to this - we don't assess these models - which impedes the take up of the ideas ... whereas I could legitimately program in the final year of secondary maths course in 1985, I don't think it would fit in today; relegated outside the maths curriculum But how isomorphic are the domains of maths and programming - and how accessible to most kids...  questions I wonder about ... <div class="Ih2E3d"> > -----Original Message----- > From: <a href="mailto:its.an.education.project-bounces@lists.lo-res.org">its.an.education.project-bounces@lists.lo-res.org</a> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:its.an.education.project-bounces@lists.lo-res.org">its.an.education.project-bounces@lists.lo-res.org</a>] On Behalf Of > David Farning > Sent: Saturday, 12 July 2008 9:21 AM > To: <a href="mailto:its.an.education.project@tema.lo-res.org">its.an.education.project@tema.lo-res.org</a> </div><div class="Ih2E3d">> Subject: [IAEP] Sugar Labs, LOGO and Brian Harvey > </div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> What is the status of LOGO for sugar?  Is it a high priority item? > > As much as LOGO I would like to bring Brian Harvey, the original author > of BL, into the project. > > He has a wealth of personal experience teaching people how to program, > he has a strong interest in LOGO, and is a good guy. > > Brian's page is at <a href="http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/%7Ebh/" target="_blank">http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/</a> . > > ucbLOGO's page is at  <a href="http://sourceforge.net/projects/ucblogo/" target="_blank">http://sourceforge.net/projects/ucblogo/</a> . > > If Sugarizing logo is a priority we could do much worse then point new > contributors to Brian's group to get their feet wet before diving into > Sugar. > > I know neither the value of bringing LOGO into OLPC nor the cost of > Sugarizing it to make a valid cost benefit analysis.  If some one could > do that analysis and it seems like a good idea it will try to get the > collaboration started. > > In my role as 'wiki watcher' I see quite a few people register, ask how > they can help, and disappear when no one responds. > > thanks > dfarning > > _______________________________________________ > Its.an.education.project mailing list > <a href="mailto:Its.an.education.project@lists.lo-res.org">Its.an.education.project@lists.lo-res.org</a> > <a href="http://lists.lo-res.org/mailman/listinfo/its.an.education.project" target="_blank">http://lists.lo-res.org/mailman/listinfo/its.an.education.project</a> </div></div>Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. 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