<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Edward Cherlin wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:e574f6eb0805190047w58bc7c9ds9c1baeec95483e41@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">You can't expect every kid to spontaneously generate the sum of human knowledge by playing with plastic blocks. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> You don't have the slightest idea what Constructionism is, as this demonstrates. </pre> </blockquote> Edward: as far as I remenber you told the same some time ago: "do you know what is construccionism?"... well... it seems that I knew it, but I studied (a lot more) some of the papers and documents that are around... from the same Papert, from the very same Alan Kay, and all document that I was able to pick up... so (if my 2 neurons are working) now I am sure that I know what is construccionism.  But.. again... as far as I remenber you have stated (or it was Papert?) that construccionism is not to be explained in just a few words. I hope that this aproach changes because IF we can not explain it in few words then I have to wonder how we can think that the peruvian teachers have caught the "construccionism" idea when they took those "prussian" and "instruccionist" order to study the construccionism around year 2000. I think that construccionism is not working fine in Peru.  Or it was not correctly taught, or it is not implemented, or the whole idea is too big (too much words for something that is natural to the human been: adapt to the circumstances.  Everything (even the most prussian or isntruccionist method get assimilited by the human been by a construccionist process).  Everyone can play if this is construccionism or constructivism.  By the way, all the people that is worried about construccionism, should train his dog.  IF you are not able to train your dog using construccionist methods (constructivist, ok?) is lacking a deep understanding of the principles (learning by doing).  Or... let's be fair... they don't like dogs! (but a good reading about all the dog training methods will bring a big surprise... dogs are trained with some constructivist methods from many years ago... ask the germans BEFORE the 1st world war). All the people that is worry about IF construccionism works or not... they can come to Peru and develop a serious study about how it is working in Peru.  As far as I have learn there are hundreds of schools in all social levels that are applying this "construccionism". I ask myself somethings related to construccionism: a) Who decided that our peruvian children needs XOs with construccionism inside and not a plain Laptop? (what studies and previous experience have been around the whole world to prove that this works... or is that the peruvian children have taken as "guinea pigs" to develop and prove some educational theories). ohh... I remenber who... our Minister of Education knew Mr. Papert some time ago... well.. the same: where is the BASE LINE ?  What are the guaranties that this "peruvian deployment" will not fail as the previous one that were develop in other countries? b) Please Edward don't cite some obscure document written about some schools or some experiment.  That is not good enough.  You, as any person that develop science, knows that this is a pilot and after your pilot succeed you need to VALIDATE the data. And for validation you need BIG numbers of tests and analysis. Are the peruvian kids the one that are going to validate the "Construccionism/XO" as a tool for the development and poverty solution?  If that is true then you got by blessings.  But, honestly, you, specially you Edward, you need to lower your tone.  Our kids are doing you a favor, we, all peruvians are doing you a favor.. what if ALL THIS FAILS? Some humility and recognition that this whole things is walking on thin ice should be good for the sake of the children.  Saying all the time "I have the reason and all the other ones are wrong" put the whole project in a very bad situation. Why? Becuase some peruvian politics believe in what you are saying. IF the project fails I will live in MY country for the rest of the life with all the damage that can happen (in educational and politic affairs), you, Edward, will come back to your daily life.  Who is taken the risk? We, the peruvians.  So, please, don't present the whole thing as the "holly grial" because you are doing damage to the future not only of the kids but for the whole peruvian population. Let's don't play with the expectations of humble people.  Let's deliver a computer that works, first point.  Then we can add some "fireworks" and in a very humble tone we can speak about the way that the peruvian teachers will teach to the peruvian kids.  These, in some sense, are more my kids that your kids, Edward. b) You don't need to brake a leg to know that it will hurt. This simple fact can be seen as an instruccionist way of learning or a construccionism (deduction) way of learning.  Both things are sides of the same coin.  And both things are natural to the human.  The mother that tells his boy "don't touch the fire" is pure instruccionist.  If she allows that the child feels the heat of the fire then it is a "constructivist" education, but... it is not practical! (please, don't answer with a simple interpretation of my words, you are an intelligent and educated person and you know what I mean with this example.  Sorry about my poor English). c) It is very educative to read your post and chat with your brilliant mind.  Unlucky we are that you, Edward, don't have a deep knowledge about the peruvian society and you think that your thoughts are the only true.  That is not very construccionist by the way. You are telling us, in a very instruccionist way, read this, think that, check this, and review that.  Very funny situation! <blockquote cite="mid:e574f6eb0805190047w58bc7c9ds9c1baeec95483e41@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Spoon-feeding facts into a kid </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> That's would be Instructionism, with the correction, "alleged facts". I can cite plenty of experts on the fact that current textbooks are full of errors and outright lies. Richard Feynman on math and physics books up before the Los Angeles textbook committee, for example. </pre> </blockquote> d) Edward, I am very old guy.  I have seen many times how someone cites the work of a third person, this cites the words/work/studies of a fourth guy, then this one cites the works of the first person.  All of them sit on the same table, know each other, are friends, work in the same fields.  Citing this or that paper doens't help.  (well it helps... just a little... just in the first moment.. but then MANY PEOPLE realize that it is a closed circle). Sometimes this happens by the worst of the reasons: money, fame, ego, power.  In science issues it has been saw many times, in many fields. The only thing that can be a valid demonstration or a valid path is to tell us when, where was done a study about the education in Peru (I speak about what I know), and establish a BASE LINE.  Then we can be able to do comparisons: how the kids were BEFORE the "XO/Sugar/Construccionism" and AFTER 2 or 3 years of working with the model.  If those studies exist under 7 keys and away from the public eyes then we need to think how to get them  and publish them. The whole energy issue (that is so different in Peru) is a demonstration that the right information was not collected in the proper time.  Who did it in the wrong way? It doesn't matter.  The true thing is that a lower profile must be taken with the whole project because things are not happening as they were intended for. Don't cite books or scholars.. come to Peru with a team to pick up the data of the pilots and the data about construccionism.  I am sure that the people in charge of the education in Peru will welcome you and will work with you.  All the other happenings are just words.  Let's hit ground, let's go to the field. e) As you have noticed I am friend of the XO/Laptop idea.  But I don't see the point in doing a "dead or live" issue with the fact that construccionism IS THE BEST WAY to teach to the peruvian children (I don't know about other countries, each place is different.  In my own country there is HUGE difference with the kids on the jungle and the kids on the Andes mountains, let's don't speak about our kids on the coast).  f) For the record: I don't like the idea that Microsoft comes with the XOs but if it comes.. we can manage it, we have managed in the last 20 years.  No big deal here in Peru.  For you it can be the end of the world, for us it is just another issue.  I have work more than 30 years with computers in Peru, so I know what I am telling you: no kid will die.  You, all americans, should be more interested in asking your congressmen why they don't order to divide microsoft in different companies.  It works with the Standard Oil (and the more powerfulll Mr. Rockefeller) and with the original Bell Company (that became separated in the Baby Bells). But I am peruvian and I can not tell you what you need to do.  I ask myself only. I know many good american fellows that do the same: they don't try to give solutions before they ask questions. <blockquote cite="mid:e574f6eb0805190047w58bc7c9ds9c1baeec95483e41@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">might not be stylish, but it works. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> No, it doesn't work as education, only as social control. You can't show me a single study demonstrating that it works better than real education, and I can cite dozens to the contrary. </pre> </blockquote> g) Social control? Edward! EVERYTHING in the human race is social control, fight for power, and survival.  It is the same in the animal and vegetal world.  Show me one human society that has not a strict structure of dominance or power. >From the old times until today.  You are American... (I think so) so I don't want to take many examples of your society, so I will speak about MY society: Peruvian society.  Here, my dear Edward, the poor kids are not worried about WHO will apply "social control" over them, they look for more simple things that can be solved (with good will and some effort) inside ANY social control structure.  Furthermore, some day, this kids will dominate and they will be the ones in charge of the "social control" of other kids.  It is not "social control" what worries me.  Is that some kind of social control is develop on such a level that involves hungry and death of many people.  But some form of "social control" will happen all the time.  h) Republican or Democrat? uhhmmmm... are we talking about the peruvian kids in the middle of the Andes Mountains?.. Remenber that for american people (U.S. Citizens) their personal economy improve on the Democrats goverments, and for foreing people (like us, peruvians) we enjoy a better economy when the Republican are in charge.   So, if we care about the peruvian kids, let's try to develop things beyond the local (U.S.) political preferences. I hope that this pill is not too big for you, for the list or for any adult person subscribed to this lists.  Many times people is manipulated saying that this or that should not be talk because more damage will show up.  I don't think so.  Somepeople say that they understand that some "negotiations" with top companies (like Microsoft) and some governments (like my government) should be kept confidential.  I think it is wrong.  Transparency during the whole process is necessary because this is a public affair that will affect the life of so many people. Know I will look for my iron suit (flames, rocks, and poisoned arrows will come!) This remind me when the first mail lists were "invented"... war! Sometimes me, as many of you, think that we invented the game! (sorry "less than 40 years old" kids!)... but that is an illusion that we talk many times with late John Postel (who invented this or establish this... well other day we can share those old stories). Best regards, Javier Rodriguez Lima, Peru </body> </html>