[IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?

[Sumit Srivastava]

Walter,

Thank you for responding, you've been with SL before it even started, it
really matters to us.

Please also address this question:

If we could achieve anything, what would we want?

This might really help us improve our plans for the future.

Regards

On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 8:42 pm Walter Bender, <walter.bender at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:49 AM Sumit Srivastava <sumitsrisumit at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Insightful inputs, Tony. I want to discuss all of the stuff being talked
>> about here, but not now.
>>
>> Please keep the emails coming, we need more of them from the community,
>> especially people who've been with SL for a long time.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 11:31 am Tony Anderson, <tony_anderson at usa.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> [snip]
>>
>> Later OLPC split into two organizations: OLPC and SugarLabs. OLPC for
>>> the production and distribution of the XO laptop and SugarLabs for
>>> implementation and support of the software (Sugar). This split has had
>>> important historical consequences: SugarLabs views itself as only
>>> developing the software but not supporting it as a product - that task
>>> is left to OLPC (for the XO) and Linux distributions for other
>>> platforms. This creates a gap between Sugar Labs and its user community.
>>>
>>
> I respectfully disagree with Tony on this point. A consequence of the
> split is the Sugar Labs does not have the same access to deployments that
> it did when there was just one organization. But whenever we have been
> given the opportunity to directly work with a deployment, we have been
> responsive. The gap does exist, but only when we are left out of the
> discussion.
>
>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> One possible future for Sugar is that it is honorably retired along with
>>> the XO to computer history. Perhaps recorded as a forerunner of the
>>> Raspberry Pi.
>>>
>>
> In fact, the Sugar experience on RPi is pretty terrific. Some of us have
> been pushing hard to get more pickup in the communities that embrace RPi.
>
>>
>>> Another future for Sugar is that it again asks 'How can the
>>> technological advances in computing be harnessed to bring the ideals of
>>> the Dynabook closer to reality?" What can we learn from the Raspberry Pi
>>> and the Maker community? Is the Dynabook to be a phone or virtual
>>> reality headgear or a game machine?
>>>
>>
> While I think the maker movement is great stuff (and one of the
> education-ideas-du-jour) I don't think it is always as focused on
> Contructonism as construction. I think we have some features, such as the
> journal and portfolio activity, that could help focus the learning
> potential of that movement.
>
>>
>>> The critical requirement to avoid retirement is to make Sugar viable as
>>> an educational computing environment on the current generation of laptop
>>> computers. This encompasses far more than converting code from Python to
>>> Python3 or GTK2 to GTK3 to GTK4 to GTK99. One brilliant solution is
>>> Sugarizer which eliminates Python altogether. However, this comes at a
>>> high price and brings great opportunity - reconstruction of the vast
>>> library of Sugar activities. This is a chance to review the history of
>>> these activities and to see how they can be done more effectively based
>>> on that experience.
>>>
>>
> We put a lot of effort into making Sugar be accessible to its users at
> both the level of user and developer and I continue to believe that is a
> central aspect of our value-add. While I am largely platform agnostic, I
> don't see the current efforts in JavaScript as being focus on this. I had
> begun a somewhat facetious project years back: turtles all the way down,
> where we would write every Sugar activity in Turtle Blocks. This is more in
> the spirit of the Dynabook and Smalltalk (or Etoys). If we want to be more
> than a collection of apps, we need to thing bigger.
>
>>
>>> The current GSOC Write project shows that Python has many meaningful
>>> capabilities not yet available in Javascript. As usual, this has been
>>> interpreted as a problem in programming. Do we want a Javascript
>>> emulator of Word? What role does 'Write' plays in a constructionist
>>> Dynabook (preparing, editing, and publishing documents)? Such a question
>>> might lead to additional questions: Do we have to make the activity look
>>> like Word? Does a 'Dynabook' need a keyboard? Will we prepare documents
>>> in the future by verbal dictation? Will computer speech recognition and
>>> production eliminate the need for traditional literacy? What form will
>>> resulting document take: pdf? mp4?
>>>
>>
>  Writing is more about editing than transcription (whether through voice
> or a keyboard).
>
>>
>>> Another interesting project is the 'Exerciser'. The Exerciser does
>>> provide for users to prepare meaningful activities but is likely to be
>>> primarily used for evaluation (tests and quizzes). The question for
>>> constructionism is the role of such 'evaluation' in education. Is it
>>> more appropriate to evaluate a learner's accomplishments by the results
>>> of his or her activities (portfolio) or by asking questions based on a
>>> fixed curriculum (quiz).
>>>
>>
> Lip-service to the worst aspects of education.
>
>>
>>> One of the original goals of this project - 'one laptop per child' is
>>> being lost essentially without a fight. Today, the 'computer lab' reigns
>>> supreme. The typical XO in Rwanda is shared among 5 or more learners.
>>> Learners are not permitted to take the laptops out of the classroom and,
>>> typically, have access to a laptop for only one hour per week. It is
>>> difficult to imagine effective learning by construction in such limited
>>> time. Even on the Curriculum subject of computing, the typical learner
>>> spends 80% of classroom time without a laptop (traditional textbook and
>>> lecture method).
>>>
>>
> Not sure what Sugar Labs can do about that except to try to subvert it by
> ensuring that the tools that the children use in the classroom lead then to
> discover a bit about the tools themselves along the way.
>
>
>>
>>> Can we assume that in the future every child on the planet will have a
>>> capable personal computer? Can we assume that the interenet at 1MBs
>>> speed will be available and affordable to every child on the planet at
>>> home and at school 24/7? The current trend is the opposite - computers
>>> and reliable high-speed internet are available only to the privileged on
>>> the right side of the growing digital divide.
>>>
>>> Above all, we need to renew spirit of the 'Give 1 Get 1' time, with
>>> contributors submitting Sugar activities and sponsors obtaining laptops
>>> to supply a school in the developing world, where the internet and
>>> computing have not yet taken root. This spirit has to be based on an
>>> expansion of the user-base on contemporary computers (e.g. Sugarizer,
>>> SOAS, 'sucre'). It also needs an appreciation of the expanding horizons
>>> available to computing - speech recognition, computer vision, massive
>>> data bases, machine learning, inexpensive sensors, robots, symbolic
>>> mathematics, ...). The critical attitude is to focus on 'what did you
>>> make?' and 'how did you make it?' and to avoid the temptation to do it
>>> for the user because you can do it better and more efficiently.
>>>
>>> In a classroom, knowledge is available to translate program text in
>>> English into the native language of the learner. This is an opportunity
>>> for a learner to improve English vocabulary by deciding on the
>>> appropriate equivalence in the native language of English words and
>>> phrases in the program. This is a clear opportunity for contructionist
>>> learning.  However, this task is done very accurately and efficiently by
>>> a team of experts without learner participation.
>>>
>>
> Another dormant project. I recall the kids in the very first school in
> Abuja writing their own spelling dictionary in Igbo. These are the real
> Sugar opportunities.
>
>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>> On 3/29/19 10:43 AM, iaep-request at lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>>> > Send IAEP mailing list submissions to
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>>> >
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> >
>>> >     1. What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit Srivastava)
>>> >     2. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Alex Perez)
>>> >     3. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit
>>> Srivastava)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 1
>>> > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 05:30:55 +0530
>>> > From: Sumit Srivastava <sumitsrisumit at gmail.com>
>>> > To: IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> > Cc: Sugar-dev Devel <sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>>> > Subject: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >       <
>>> CAEzcGJxVDMDpujbLasKUGnrW5hXyeECk5nd48ZDa+jRFWq82Nw at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest
>>> to?
>>> > Who do we aim to be?
>>> >
>>> > I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share
>>> relevant
>>> > mail archive links if they're available.
>>> >
>>> > I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I
>>> mentioned
>>> > might not be a close match.
>>> >
>>> > Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we
>>> want?
>>> >
>>> > Regards
>>> > Sumit Srivastava
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 2
>>> > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 18:19:32 -0700
>>> > From: Alex Perez <aperez at alexperez.com>
>>> > To: IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org, Sugar-dev Devel
>>> >       <sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?
>>> > Message-ID: <63ae1aa0-7d88-2c1a-0d34-96c9f9e9d7ea at alexperez.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>> >
>>> > Sumit,
>>> >
>>> > Great questions, and they're particularly relevant at this phase/age of
>>> > the existence of Sugar Labs. They certainly can't be answered in a
>>> > single e-mail, however I think this is a perfect conversation to have,
>>> > particularly on our IAEP mailing list, which is our general purpose
>>> > mailing list.
>>> >
>>> > Sumit Srivastava wrote on 3/28/19 5:00 PM:
>>> >> Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest
>>> >> to? Who do we aim to be?
>>> > Speaking as an Oversight Board member, I do not believe it is in the
>>> > interest of Sugar Labs to attempt to emulate a company like Red Hat and
>>> > Canonical. These companies have hundreds/thousands of paid employees,
>>> > and their organizational structure is a product of the needs of their
>>> > corporate customers.
>>> >
>>> > Right now, we have a few existential problems on the horizon, one of
>>> > which is a long term problem, but which we now need to address in the
>>> > short-term: Maintainability. Sugar has a lot of "technical debt", and
>>> > unless we can complete our goal of 100% Python 3 compatibility of all
>>> > core Sugar libraries and the toolkit, we risk the loss of being able to
>>> > be run as a desktop environment on current versions of Linux, due to
>>> our
>>> > reliance on Python 2. Since Python 2 has been on life support for many,
>>> > many years, and is only nine months from being officially retired, it
>>> > will no longer be maintained by the Python Foundation, nor included by
>>> > default in the next versions of Fedora and Ubuntu. You can read further
>>> > details about the sunsetting of Python 2 at https://pythonclock.org
>>> > <https://pythonclock.org/>
>>> >
>>> > <https://pythonclock.org/>
>>> >> I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share
>>> >> relevant mail archive links if they're available.
>>> >>
>>> >> I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I
>>> >> mentioned might not be a close match.
>>> > I personally do not think the core entity of Sugar Labs should be a
>>> > commercial entity, but non-profit organizations are completely entitled
>>> > to be profitable, and many are quite  for the profitable. Personally, I
>>> > would like to see the development of a federated model, where we have
>>> > country/regionally-centered "chapters" of Sugar Labs, with Sugar Labs
>>> > itself taking the in-the-field feedback from our distributed user base,
>>> > and incorporating and triaging suggestions/feedback,
>>> >> Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we
>>> want?
>>> > I would love to see a world where Sugar was used extensively,
>>> worldwide,
>>> > by children in the primary school age range, with a wide range of
>>> > actively-maintained activities, relevant to the current curricula of a
>>> > variety of countries, and of interest to elementary school teachers,
>>> > across all socioeconomic groups. How we get there is the real question,
>>> > assuming we want to, and have the organizational will to do so.
>>> >
>>> > As for what our "long term vision" is, I honestly don't think we have
>>> > one at this point, and we should fix that, which is one of the reasons
>>> > why I chose to run for the Sugar Labs Oversight Board. Our next meeting
>>> > is next Friday, on 2019-04-05 at 20:00 UTC, on IRC, in the
>>> > #sugar-meeting channel on FreeNode. Feel free to join us and observe,
>>> as
>>> > well as ask questions before and after the official meeting commences.
>>> >
>>> > https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board
>>> >> Regards
>>> >> Sumit Srivastava
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>> >> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 3
>>> > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 08:13:29 +0530
>>> > From: Sumit Srivastava <sumitsrisumit at gmail.com>
>>> > To: iaep <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>>> > Cc: Sugar-dev Devel <sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >       <
>>> CAEzcGJxi42Ts0yQYocDKYToBJNQrmunjZzAGG5Z_qRd_qxkkiQ at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > Great points, Alex.
>>> >
>>> > I would love to hear from all of you, especially the senior members of
>>> the
>>> > SL community, before we discuss all the points one by one.
>>> >
>>> > Regards
>>> > Sumit
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 6:49 am Alex Perez, <aperez at alexperez.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Sumit,
>>> >>
>>> >> Great questions, and they're particularly relevant at this phase/age
>>> of
>>> >> the existence of Sugar Labs. They certainly can't be answered in a
>>> single
>>> >> e-mail, however I think this is a perfect conversation to have,
>>> >> particularly on our IAEP mailing list, which is our general purpose
>>> mailing
>>> >> list.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sumit Srivastava wrote on 3/28/19 5:00 PM:
>>> >>
>>> >> Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest
>>> to?
>>> >> Who do we aim to be?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Speaking as an Oversight Board member, I do not believe it is in the
>>> >> interest of Sugar Labs to attempt to emulate a company like Red Hat
>>> and
>>> >> Canonical. These companies have hundreds/thousands of paid employees,
>>> and
>>> >> their organizational structure is a product of the needs of their
>>> corporate
>>> >> customers.
>>> >>
>>> >> Right now, we have a few existential problems on the horizon, one of
>>> which
>>> >> is a long term problem, but which we now need to address in the
>>> short-term:
>>> >> Maintainability. Sugar has a lot of "technical debt", and unless we
>>> can
>>> >> complete our goal of 100% Python 3 compatibility of all core Sugar
>>> >> libraries and the toolkit, we risk the loss of being able to be run
>>> as a
>>> >> desktop environment on current versions of Linux, due to our reliance
>>> on
>>> >> Python 2. Since Python 2 has been on life support for many, many
>>> years, and
>>> >> is only nine months from being officially retired, it will no longer
>>> be
>>> >> maintained by the Python Foundation, nor included by default in the
>>> next
>>> >> versions of Fedora and Ubuntu. You can read further details about the
>>> >> sunsetting of Python 2 at https://pythonclock.org
>>> >>
>>> >> <https://pythonclock.org/>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share
>>> >> relevant mail archive links if they're available.
>>> >>
>>> >> I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I
>>> >> mentioned might not be a close match.
>>> >>
>>> >> I personally do not think the core entity of Sugar Labs should be a
>>> >> commercial entity, but non-profit organizations are completely
>>> entitled to
>>> >> be profitable, and many are quite  for the profitable. Personally, I
>>> would
>>> >> like to see the development of a federated model, where we have
>>> >> country/regionally-centered "chapters" of Sugar Labs, with Sugar Labs
>>> >> itself taking the in-the-field feedback from our distributed user
>>> base, and
>>> >> incorporating and triaging suggestions/feedback,
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we
>>> want?
>>> >>
>>> >> I would love to see a world where Sugar was used extensively,
>>> worldwide,
>>> >> by children in the primary school age range, with a wide range of
>>> >> actively-maintained activities, relevant to the current curricula of a
>>> >> variety of countries, and of interest to elementary school teachers,
>>> across
>>> >> all socioeconomic groups. How we get there is the real question,
>>> assuming
>>> >> we want to, and have the organizational will to do so.
>>> >>
>>> >> As for what our "long term vision" is, I honestly don't think we have
>>> one
>>> >> at this point, and we should fix that, which is one of the reasons
>>> why I
>>> >> chose to run for the Sugar Labs Oversight Board. Our next meeting is
>>> next
>>> >> Friday, on 2019-04-05 at 20:00 UTC, on IRC, in the #sugar-meeting
>>> channel
>>> >> on FreeNode. Feel free to join us and observe, as well as ask
>>> questions
>>> >> before and after the official meeting commences.
>>> >>
>>> >> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards
>>> >> Sumit Srivastava
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)IAEP
>>> @lists.sugarlabs.orghttp://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>> >> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
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>>> >
>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>> > IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > End of IAEP Digest, Vol 132, Issue 6
>>> > ************************************
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
>
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