[IAEP] [SoaS] SoaS frustrations & call for proposals

Frederick Grose fgrose at gmail.com
Sun Feb 19 13:17:49 EST 2017
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On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net>
wrote:

> Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
> from Scale, an adopter wants to know:
>
> 1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
> using it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
> 2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
> available?
> 3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?
>
> Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
> Wiki, Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of
> tools.
> Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
> Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.
>
> For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
> how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
> 650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent. They
> say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
> running Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.
>
> Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
> that?') requires the use of the command:
>
> sudo dnf install livecd-tools
>
> No potential adopter would persist even to this point.
>
> The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
> The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
> intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.
>
> In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
> This should be featured.
>
> Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
> download which can be transfered to a usb stick by a single dd command.
> This stick would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an
> available block of hard drive on any amd_64 machine. A second image ideally
> would be installable as a Window application with a supported Windows
> installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a Debian image which
> can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry Pi 3 (and possibly
> 2).
>
> Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
> on the main screen, not down six screens.
>
> Tony
>
> On 02/15/2017 11:20 PM, iaep-request at lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:15:05 +0000
> From: Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com> <cbigenho at hotmail.com>
> To: Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> <bert at freudenbergs.de>
> Cc: IAEP SugarLabs <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org> <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] pixel
> Message-ID:
> 	<CY4PR19MB1061668D2FC5EEF8CBBCD2CDCC5B0 at CY4PR19MB1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CY4PR19MB1061668D2FC5EEF8CBBCD2CDCC5B0 at CY4PR19MB1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> +1 for Tony's comment!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 15, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de<mailto:bert at freudenbergs.de> <bert at freudenbergs.de>> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:35 AM, Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net<mailto:tony_anderson at usa.net> <tony_anderson at usa.net>> wrote:
> This is what I hoped Sugarlabs would do:
> https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try- IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 15raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc <https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc>
>
> Tony
>
> Isn't that exactly what SoaS does?
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation
>
> - Bert -
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep



This discussion started with Tony's reference to PIXEL
<https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc>,
a live
CD <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_CD> of the Raspberry Pi OS. That led
to a reference to Sugar on a Stick
<https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick> and a discussion of its
ease of installation. From there the discussion got split as I addressed
some technical issues on the SoaS mailing list, followed by Caryl giving
some insights on the suitability of SoaS in comparison to Sugarizer
<http://sugarizer.org/>.  Peter responded with more information on the
breadth of technology currently served by SoaS
<https://spins.fedoraproject.org/en/soas/>, the Fedora-Sugar Labs spin of
Sugar.

So I've brought both threads together here by cross posting a transcript.


Praise be, Sugarizer has made great steps toward Sugar Labs' technical
goals <https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Technical_Goals> and
deserves much greater investment as Caryl suggests.

Yet there remains considerable value in the SoaS variants of Sugar, so
attention is still deserved there to support the needs of another class of
users and learners.

To that end,  I notice that the Fedora 26 proposal submission deadline is
fast approaching (21 Feb 2017) and so offer this thread and this feature
page <https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/SoaS_next> for proposals.

Thanks be given for your insights and efforts!



Forwarded conversation
Subject: Fwd: [IAEP] SoaS installation frustrations
------------------------

From: Frederick Grose <fgrose at sugarlabs.org>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:23 AM
To: soas at lists.sugarlabs.org
Cc: Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>, tony_anderson at usa.net


See the posting below with inline suggestions.  The posting was to the IAEP
mailing list for the general Sugar audience.  I've copied the discussion
here to the SoaS list for technical followup.  Perhaps we could interest
some Google Code-In or GSOC applicants to innovate on the installation
issues.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: [IAEP] IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 15
To: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org


Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
from Scale, an adopter wants to know:

1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
using it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
available?
3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?

Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
Wiki, Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of
tools.
Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.

For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent. They
say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
running Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.

Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
that?') requires the use of the command:

sudo dnf install livecd-tools

No potential adopter would persist even to this point.

>> We should go back to including the livecd-tools package in SoaS and we
should also copy the livecd-iso-to-disk script to the /LiveOS/ folder as
was previously standard in Fedora, because installing SoaS with persistent
storage is essential for the project goal of having a resumable Sugar
environment in your pocket.

This is something Peter Robinson, our SoaS packager, can accomplish or
advise us on.

The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.

In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
This should be featured.

Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
download which can be transferred to a usb stick by a single dd command.
This stick would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an
available block of hard drive on any amd_64 machine.

>> This is currently available, but not featured in our instructions as
such an installation lacks persistence of user/learner Activities between
boots.  However, it is the easiest way to demonstrate a live SoaS system.
Instructions should be updated.

A second image ideally would be installable as a Window application with a
supported Windows installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a
Debian image which can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry Pi
3 (and possibly 2).

Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
on the main screen, not down six screens.

Tony

On 02/15/2017 11:20 PM, iaep-request at lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:15:05 +0000
From: Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com> <cbigenho at hotmail.com>
To: Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> <bert at freudenbergs.de>
Cc: IAEP SugarLabs <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org> <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
Subject: Re: [IAEP] pixel
Message-ID:
	<CY4PR19MB1061668D2FC5EEF8CBBCD2CDCC5B0 at CY4PR19MB1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
<CY4PR19MB1061668D2FC5EEF8CBBCD2CDCC5B0 at CY4PR19MB1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
	
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

+1 for Tony's comment!

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Bert Freudenberg
<bert at freudenbergs.de<mailto:bert at freudenbergs.de>
<bert at freudenbergs.de>> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:35 AM, Tony Anderson
<tony_anderson at usa.net<mailto:tony_anderson at usa.net>
<tony_anderson at usa.net>> wrote:
This is what I hoped Sugarlabs would do:
https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc

Tony

Isn't that exactly what SoaS does?
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation

- Bert -

______________________________________________
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep


For those interested alleviating these frustrations, the following links to
previous efforts provide some background:

https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Resources
<http://goog_127419843/>

https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Goals

https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/TODO

   --Fred



----------
From: Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:30 PM
To: "soas at lists.sugarlabs.org" <soas at lists.sugarlabs.org>
Cc: "tony_anderson at usa.net" <tony_anderson at usa.net>


Hi Guys...


I'm sorry to stick a pin in your balloon, but I really think it is time to
(gasp) retire SOAS! If your target market is education, it is still far too
complex for most educators to want to even try to install it, much less
write lesson plans that will utilize Sugar's Activities to help their
students learn. As Tony knows, teachers simply don't have the time to learn
about things like Terminal commands, what Gnu and Linux are etc.
Unfortunately this is why Apple has such a grip on technology in schools...
in the words of Steve Jobs (I think he was the one who said it) "It just
works!"


That is why I think our focus should shift to Sugarizer. It just works!
Teachers, students, parents , and everyone else knows how to install an app
on their device and Sugarizer is available to install on almost any device.


What it needs now to make it a viable option for schools and other
educational projects is some great documentation with lesson suggestions
for the various Activities that are relevant to the work the students are
doing... learning language arts by reading and writing, learning math by
doing math, music by making music etc.


This is one reason why I made a proposal last summer (that no one picked up
on) that we begin with a special small edition, Sugarizer Primero or
Sugarizer1° (1° is primero). It would have just those Activities that would
be useful in the K-2 (Primary School). This small version would not include
any war games so it could be used more universally.


We could find some willing educators to test it and help develop lesson
plan suggestions. These teachers should be paid for their work (from
SugarLabs funds). We would need someone very familiar with using Sugar with
students and with access to a lot of teachers and classes to test it. It
seems that the perfect person for this would be Rosamel Norma Ramirez in
Uruguay.


So... as I said... sorry! But it is time to realistic about this and move
on.


Caryl


P.S. For Tony... are you in the US? Are you coming to SCaLE March 3-5?



------------------------------
*From:* SoaS <soas-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org> on behalf of Frederick
Grose <fgrose at sugarlabs.org>
*Sent:* Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:23:31 AM
*To:* soas at lists.sugarlabs.org
*Cc:* tony_anderson at usa.net
*Subject:* [SoaS] Fwd: [IAEP] SoaS installation frustrations


_______________________________________________
SoaS mailing list
SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas


----------
From: Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:41 PM
To: Frederick Grose <fgrose at sugarlabs.org>
Cc: Development of live Sugar distributions <soas at lists.sugarlabs.org>,
tony_anderson at usa.net


On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Frederick Grose <fgrose at sugarlabs.org>
wrote:
> See the posting below with inline suggestions.  The posting was to the
IAEP
> mailing list for the general Sugar audience.  I've copied the discussion
> here to the SoaS list for technical followup.  Perhaps we could interest
> some Google Code-In or GSOC applicants to innovate on the installation
> issues.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Tony Anderson <tony_anderson at usa.net>
> Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 15
> To: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org
>
>
> Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
> from Scale, an adopter wants to know:
>
> 1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
using
> it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
> 2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
> available?
> 3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?
>
> Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
Wiki,
> Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of tools.
> Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
> Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.

The SoaS site it much better:
https://spins.fedoraproject.org/soas/

> For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
> how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
> 650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent.
They
> say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
running
> Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.

Fedora has a Windows/MacOS/Linux graphical tool to write USB sticks
and that is what should be used IMO.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_and_use_Live_USB

> Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
> that?') requires the use of the command:
>
> sudo dnf install livecd-tools
>
> No potential adopter would persist even to this point.
>
>>> We should go back to including the livecd-tools package in SoaS and we
>>> should also copy the livecd-iso-to-disk script to the /LiveOS/ folder
as was
>>> previously standard in Fedora, because installing SoaS with persistent
>>> storage is essential for the project goal of having a resumable Sugar
>>> environment in your pocket.
>
> This is something Peter Robinson, our SoaS packager, can accomplish or
> advise us on.

I need help if SoaS is to survive. I really don't have the time to maintain
it.

That said I think most of the instructions on the web site are garbage.

> The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
> The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
> intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.
>
> In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
> This should be featured.

Why confuse users with a plethora of distributions? You go on about
making it easier and less confusing where all that does it adds to the
confusion.

> Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
download
> which can be transferred to a usb stick by a single dd command. This stick
> would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an available block
of
> hard drive on any amd_64 machine.
>
>>> This is currently available, but not featured in our instructions as
such
>>> an installation lacks persistence of user/learner Activities between
boots.
>>> However, it is the easiest way to demonstrate a live SoaS system.
>>> Instructions should be updated.
>
> A second image ideally would be installable as a Window application with a
> supported Windows installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a
> Debian image which can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry
Pi
> 3 (and possibly 2).

We product SoaS on Fedora for the Raspberry Pi 2 and 3 already (plus
around 200 other cheap ARM devices). Why do you need a Debian image
where you could use the Fedora SoaS and ensure a consistent experience
across all platforms.

> Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
> on the main screen, not down six screens.

Get someone to actually write quality documentation for doing so.
_______________________________________________
SoaS mailing list
SoaS at lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas



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