[IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys

[Alan Papert]

I am not an educator but an engineer with a strong interest in the learning process. I believe that one can learn valuable lessons from any of the activities available on Sugar; the tool one chooses depends on what result you are striving for. 


Learning math as a subject which can be enjoyed, and used as the problem solving tool which it is, requires far more than learning a number of rules and tricks. It requires, on an individual basis, a progression from how one conceives numbers to how they relate to shapes, formulas, etc. This is not an easy process, and can make the brain hurt at times, but is not helped by short cuts which make one believe that one understands. Scratch provides the tools to enable the student to explore her/his understanding of these basic concepts by instructing a sprite find out in a disciplined way, for example, how to draw a hexagon without any prior knowledge of angles or how they interact with the length of the sides.

Once they have got to the stage where they are comfortable with manipulating numbers, they can use programs such as e-toys to explore higher order problems. They can always go back to Scratch to get a clear understanding of processes which are built into the higher order programs.




>________________________________
>From: "iaep-request at lists.sugarlabs.org" <iaep-request at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>To: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org
>Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 11:34 PM
>Subject: IAEP Digest, Vol 42, Issue 4
>
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>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: [Local Labs] Local Labs updates (Laura Vargas)
>   2. Re: team updates (David Farning)
>   3. Re: [Sugar-devel] Fwd: unique activities TamTamMini-60 . . .
>      (Sean Linton)
>   4. Re: [Sugar-devel] Fwd: unique activities TamTamMini-60 . . .
>      (James Cameron)
>   5. Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys? (Steve Thomas)
>   6. Re: Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys? (Cherry Withers)
>   7. Re: Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys? (Alan Kay)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 14:06:37 -0500
>From: Laura Vargas <laura at somosazucar.org>
>To: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org
>Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Local Labs] Local Labs updates
>Message-ID: <4E61293D.1040203 at somosazucar.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>El formato en espa?ol para los local labs:
>
>Reporte de Estado Sugarlab Local
>
>Nombre del Equipo:
>
>Misi?n:
>
>Objetivos de corto plazo (3 - 6 meses):
>1.
>2.
>3.
>
>Objetivos de mediano plazo (6 meses - 1 a?o):
>1.
>2.
>3.
>
>Objetivos de largo plazo (1 a?o - 3 a?os):
>1.
>2.
>3.
>
>Que obst?culos cree el equipo que tiene para ser mas exitoso en su 
>misi?n? Que se est? haciendo para resolverlo? Como puede Sugar Labs 
>'central' o la comunidad hacer para ayudar?
>
>
>
>On 9/1/11 10:24 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:
>> Sugar Teams Update Report
>>
>> Name of team:
>>
>> Mission statement:
>>
>> Short Term Goals(three?six months):
>> 1.
>> 2.
>> 3.
>>
>> Medium Term Goals(6 months?one year):
>> 1.
>> 2.
>> 3.
>>
>> Long Term Goals(one year?three years):
>> 1.
>> 2.
>> 3.
>>
>> What does the team see as its constraints from being more successful
>> in its Mission? What are you doing to try to resolve the constraint?
>> What can Sugar Labs 'central' or the community do to help? 
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:41:30 -0500
>From: David Farning <dfarning at activitycentral.com>
>To: Walter Bender <walter.bender at gmail.com>
>Cc: iaep <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>, slobs at sugarlabs.org
>Subject: Re: [IAEP] team updates
>Message-ID:
>    <CAOGko=_K3A0SdRZBBSOA-yArSjei1+MYGVOxKni-LLsfM1m0ig at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Walter Bender <walter.bender at gmail.com> wrote:
>> At the last Sugar Labs oversight board meeting [1], we discussed the
>> need to update the status of the various teams and local labs. You are
>> receiving this email because you are currently listed as a team
>> coordinator on the wiki [2]. We would like each of you to make a short
>> report on your team by email to the iaep list by 9 September? and plan
>> to attend the next scheduled SLOBs meeting, 16 September. Below [3] is
>> an outline prepared by John Tierney that may serve to guide you in
>> preparing your report.
>>
>> I am aware that some of you are no longer active in your roles. In
>> those cases, could you please send me some names of possible
>> replacements as team coordinators. Also, in some cases, the teams
>> themselves are perhaps obsolete. This will be one of the discussion
>> topics on the 16th.
>
>> Documentation
>> ??? David Farning
>
>
>> What does the team see as its constraints from being more successful
>> in its Mission? What are you doing to try to resolve the constraint?
>> What can Sugar Labs 'central' or the community do to help?
>
>Documentation is a hard problem for community projects.
>
>One solution is to focus on the documentation individual deployments
>create and help make those documents more widely available.
>
>I don't have any suggestions for continuing the team or identifying a
>new coordinator.
>
>david
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 11:33:39 +1200
>From: Sean Linton <sean at lpnz.org>
>To: Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com>
>Cc: IAEP SugarLabs <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>,    Sugar-Labs
>    <sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org>,    tabitha.mail at gmail.com, James
>    Cameron <quozl at laptop.org>
>Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Fwd: unique activities TamTamMini-60
>    . . .
>Message-ID:
>    <CAP=xkFjBAC0w=n+NHXJ+YnDEX3GWvq085O0LtjwcPR8=2F-LyQ at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>Hi
>
>Reading the through the upgrade process I think I will leave this machine
>alone. I dont want to risk the upgrade not working and returning the machine
>without a usable OS. It is used by his daughter.
>
>S
>
>
>
>On 3 September 2011 03:41, Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Hi... Exactly what I was going to suggest.  Is there a reason you friend
>> hasn't updated?  Check with him first and, if he doesn't mind go for a newer
>> build.  Can anyone suggest the best choice for this update?  I would say
>> maybe 860 since 874 is very new and still may have a few bugs.
>>
>> Caryl
>>
>> > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 13:58:55 +1000
>> > From: quozl at laptop.org
>> > To: sean at lpnz.org
>> > CC: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org; sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org;
>> tabitha.mail at gmail.com
>> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Fwd: unique activities TamTamMini-60 .
>> . .
>>
>> >
>> > 406.xx is far too old, I don't think any of the activities available on
>> > Sugar Labs would be particularly compatible. Upgrade to a later build.
>> >
>> > --
>> > James Cameron
>> > http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> > IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 09:45:55 +1000
>From: James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org>
>To: Sean Linton <sean at lpnz.org>
>Cc: IAEP SugarLabs <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>,    Sugar-Labs
>    <sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org>, tabitha.mail at gmail.com
>Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Fwd: unique activities TamTamMini-60
>    . . .
>Message-ID: <20110902234555.GD25067 at us.netrek.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>Yes, you need experience before taking such a move with confidence.
>
>There is a save-nand feature built into the firmware that can take a
>backup of the existing build and journal for later restore.  But I've no
>idea what version it began to work well with, and no idea what firmware
>version you have on the XO-1.
>
>On Sat, Sep 03, 2011 at 11:33:39AM +1200, Sean Linton wrote:
>> Hi  
>> 
>> Reading the through the upgrade process I think I will leave this machine
>> alone. I dont want to risk the upgrade not working and returning the machine
>> without a usable OS. It is used by his daughter.
>> 
>> S
>>      
>>        
>> 
>> On 3 September 2011 03:41, Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>     Hi... Exactly what I was going to suggest.   Is there a reason you friend
>>     hasn't updated?   Check with him first and, if he doesn't mind go for a
>>     newer build.   Can anyone suggest the best choice for this update?   I
>>     would say maybe 860 since 874 is very new and still may have a few bugs.
>> 
>>     Caryl
>> 
>>     > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 13:58:55 +1000
>>     > From: quozl at laptop.org
>>     > To: sean at lpnz.org
>>     > CC: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org; sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org;
>>    tabitha.mail at gmail.com
>>     > Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Fwd: unique activities TamTamMini-60 .
>>     . .
>> 
>>     >
>>     > 406.xx is far too old, I don't think any of the activities available on
>>     > Sugar Labs would be particularly compatible. Upgrade to a later build.
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > James Cameron
>>     > http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>     > IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>     > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> 
>> 
>
>-- 
>James Cameron
>http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 22:04:17 -0400
>From: Steve Thomas <sthomas1 at gosargon.com>
>To: iaep <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>, naturalmath at googlegroups.com,
>    squeakland <squeakland at squeakland.org>, scratched at scratch.mit.edu
>Subject: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
>Message-ID:
>    <CAGa9PAbk9cfaqUOrKRma81d9A5GcbBzVaRtjUNOB_D=5pipV3w at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids prefer
>Scratch.  I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys for
>most learning and teaching.
>
>What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys?  And
>vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch?
>.
>I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the
>thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and
>repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect
>assumptions and prejudices ;)
>
>Stephen
>P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not looking
>for the "one ring to rule them all."  Each language/environment has its
>advantages and we need multiple.
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 20:03:42 -0700
>From: Cherry Withers <cwithers at ekindling.org>
>To: Steve Thomas <sthomas1 at gosargon.com>
>Cc: iaep <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>, squeakland
>    <squeakland at squeakland.org>,    scratched at scratch.mit.edu,
>    naturalmath at googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
>Message-ID:
>    <CAPR91uWSBk9iqHOcoXXhrpOubNvd0J-pyS114TmDZheVkpztCA at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>When I did my workshop on Etoys in the Philippines back in June, one kid did
>a "draft" of the same project in Scratch first using the pre-installed
>cliparts then did it in Etoys like I asked. It was a simple "knock knock
>joke" project with speech bubbles popping up when a moving bar touches a
>different color on the bottom of the page. For him the pre-installed
>cliparts made it easier for him to jump right into programming rather than
>spend so much time drawing things. However, some kids derived more
>satisfaction in using their own drawings. I personally like the latter.
>
>Incidentally, no one taught the child how to use Scratch and he didn't use
>it fully (never did a project in Scratch) till we got into conditional
>statements in Etoys. He started drawing parallels with Etoys. On our 2nd and
>3rd day, he would always create his draft first on Scratch then do things in
>Etoys. It was a lot easier for him to "find" things in Scratch he says.
>
>I will check back with our teachers to see if more children are using
>Scratch. Our four teachers in the Philippines use Etoys in their lessons but
>that may be because I got them started with Etoys and they're just used to
>it now and don't want to change.
>
>Best,
>Cherry
>
>On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Steve Thomas <sthomas1 at gosargon.com> wrote:
>
>> I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids
>> prefer Scratch.  I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys
>> for most learning and teaching.
>>
>> What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys?  And
>> vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch?
>> .
>> I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the
>> thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and
>> repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect
>> assumptions and prejudices ;)
>>
>> Stephen
>> P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not
>> looking for the "one ring to rule them all."  Each language/environment has
>> its advantages and we need multiple.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 20:33:49 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com>
>To: Steve Thomas <sthomas1 at gosargon.com>, iaep
>    <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>,    "naturalmath at googlegroups.com"
>    <naturalmath at googlegroups.com>,    squeakland
>    <squeakland at squeakland.org>,    "scratched at scratch.mit.edu"
>    <scratched at scratch.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
>Message-ID:
>    <1315020829.70924.YahooMailNeo at web110107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Both Etoys and Scratch were done by some of the same people (especially John Maloney), and both are on top of Squeak Smalltalk. The original Etoys interface was more like Scratch's (small area for action results, most of the screen area used for showing tools, tiles, etc.). The first Etoys was aimed at the web (at Disney), and making the start up more obvious and using more screen for it is a good idea I think. The projects for the first Etoys were also like Scratch projects: effects, jokes, postcards, simple animations, etc.
>
>
>The next version of Etoys was for classrooms that would have much more help and do more ambitious projects. So we went to a full screen with flaps for the tools. This worked well in this setting.
>
>The OLPC XO presented a problem in that it had lots of pixels but a very small visual angle.? We decided to stay with the classroom version, and I think this was a good idea on the one hand, but it went against the general lack of help that might be available in many of the XO's destinations.
>
>Then we handed Etoys over to the Squeak Foundation, and the version they put out online retains the classroom UI with flaps.
>
>
>Personally, I think the Scratch UI is better for many things than the Etoys UI, especially first encounters, which are so important for so many beginners these days. And I think the Scratch people have done a fantastic job on their web presence, including their gallery, the emulator for Scratch projects so you can see what they do, their online materials, etc.
>
>On the other hand, Scratch lacks a real media system, a massively parallel particle system, and many other features that are really needed and useful for learning things beyond simple programming. Etoys is much more complete in many more ways.
>
>
>Both systems have strong and weak points as to their language choices. Both lack nice extensions into more sophisticated programming. Both need to be greatly improved.
>
>
>And so forth.
>
>But I think in the world we live in, it is initial experiences that count in a non-classical culture (and this is most cultures around the world including the US). So we have to praise Scratch here, and wish that it had more depth. Etoys could easily be set up with a more useful exposed UI, and this would help tremendously in initial impressions.
>
>As to how many features to include, this is a tricky one. Scratch has quite a few features -- such as the thought balloon one -- because it was primarily initially designed for the "Computer Clubhouses", afternoon drop in experiences for junior high and high school kids. 
>
>
>Etoys has fewer built in features because part of the "real deal" is to learn how to make your own features. It could have clip art, but we left it out because it is cognitively a good thing for children to learn how to draw. This is good for a "learning tool", but is not good for a "productivity tool".
>
>There is no question that both systems could be improved along the lines of their current styles.
>
>One could also imagine taking the lessons learned from both systems and inventing a new environment that is quite a bit better than either. I like this option the best.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Alan
>
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>>From: Steve Thomas <sthomas1 at gosargon.com>
>>To: iaep <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>; naturalmath at googlegroups.com; squeakland <squeakland at squeakland.org>; scratched at scratch.mit.edu
>>Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 7:04 PM
>>Subject: [IAEP] Why is Scratch more popular than Etoys?
>>
>>
>>I have taught both Scratch and Etoys to kids and hands down most kids prefer Scratch. ?I also prefer Scratch for certain things, but prefer Etoys for most learning and teaching.
>>
>>
>>What can we learn from Scratch (and TurtleArt et al) to improve Etoys? ?And vice versa what can be done to improve Scratch?
>>. ?
>>I have ideas, which I will share later, but I am curious to hear the thoughts of others (as mine add nothing to my current understanding and repeating them will simply further ingrain incomplete and incorrect assumptions and prejudices ;)
>>
>>
>>Stephen
>>P.S. I fully believe kids should learn multiple languages and am not looking for the "one ring to rule them all." ?Each language/environment has its advantages and we need multiple.
>>_______________________________________________
>>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>>
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>
>_______________________________________________
>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>End of IAEP Digest, Vol 42, Issue 4
>***********************************
>
>
>
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