[IAEP] FW: [OLPC Bolivia] No logro aprender Sugar / I cannot learn Sugar why would YOU want to?

[Steve Thomas]

   1. I believe Carlos raises valid points
   2. We need specifics so we can prioritize and address them, So:
      1. Let's stop talking in generalities and about volunteer vs
      corporate, we are what we are, so let's make the best of it
      2. We should work with Carlos (who I find generally very helpful and
      supportive and I firmly believe has a heart to help and that is
why he made
      the criticisms) to get a list of specific issues, so we can identify and
      prioritize solutions.

Stephen

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Chris Leonard <cjlhomeaddress at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Kenneth Wyrick <kmw at caltek.net> wrote:
> > Chris,
> >
> > Since this seems to be something you have sincere passion about, would
> you
> > be willing to simply list/summarize specific points that you see that
> > Carlos made so we can talk about them point by point to hopefully arrive
> > at a more succinct overall intention of his communication?
>
>
> Kenneth,
>
> I do have a passion for Sugar / OLPC and perhaps that is why I
> identify with the passion that I see in Carlos' message.  I would
> reprise my comment that the discussion is best carried out *with*
> Carlos and in Spanish on the lists he posted his message, but I will
> give it a shot.  However, I will say that I cannot really speak to
> Carlos concerns, that conversation should happen with Carlos.  I
> intersperse my comments with his paragraphs below (prepending mine
> with "cjl").
>
> Quoting from the English translation at
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1yBr2G7FF5Jr46ixt_THm1xQh08cyNJXx8KUy-WDZ1Xs
>
> First let's  acknowledge this as a potentially misleading starting
> point as tone can easily be mangled by Google Translate.
>
> "I work since 1983,  using computers as an important tool to earn a
> living.  While working, I had to learn DOS, Windows and Macintosh.  I
> also learned Open Office, Google Docs and Etoys after retiring from
> work."
>
>     cjl - It is clear to me from this that Carlos has a lifetime of
> expectations formed by the systems that he grew up using.  It is a
> psychological phenomena that "violation of expectations" leads to
> strong reactions.  I've worked as programmer on and off since the late
> '70's.  Yes, I've booted computers from cassette tape, been paid to
> program on IBM  punch cards, have used Wang 8 inch floppies and know
> what a read-write ring looks like and does.  I know where he is coming
> from.
>
> "I just cannot learn Sugar.  I ask for help when I find problems I
> cannot resolve but I don´t seem to get answers that make any sense."
>
>     cjl - In this I read frustration at the comnunications channels,
> I can sympathize with this sentiment and imagine it must be amplified
> for a native Spanish speaker.  In my opinion this is the crux of the
> message that deserves further exploration of the exact issues and
> engagement with a positive tone to seek improvements and where
> possible remedies for the problems that plague Carlos and other users.
>  This is the feedback we've been asking for, it is up to us to take
> him seriously (as he should be) and draw him out on the details.
> Sorry, it isn't filed in a bug-tracker with a patch, it will require a
> conversation.
>
> "From what I hear at meetings, both in Uruguay and overseas, and from
> what I read in lists,  I can assure I am not the only one having this
> problem."
>
>     cjl - No question he is right about this.  In fact the lack of
> feedback from deployments is often bemoaned on the IAEP list.  It is
> just a little amusing and slightly sad that when such feedback comes
> (however poorly framed), the first response is to reject it,
>
> "I beg you excuse my ignorance.  If some ignorant like me doesn´t
> speak clearly,  we will continue to waste our time for ever as well as
> waste the precious time of children and adolescents and trying to
> convince teachers they don´t know how to teach."
>
> "If you are ashamed of confessing you don´t know,  continuing in
> ignorance is more of a shame."
>
>     cjl - Here Carlos admits his own shortcomings (we all have them)
> and asks for enlightnement.  This to me is a sign of intelligence,
> admitting one's own limitations.
>
> "I said I learned to work with quite diverse computers and operating
> systems and I just cannot get to learn Sugar.  Let´s try to find then,
>  what does Sugar have different from DOS, Windows, Macintosh, Open
> Office, Google Docs and Etoys."
>
>     cjl - see earlier comment about "violation of expectations".
>
> "A characteristic common to all the systems I was able to learn and
> use with positive results is they work well.  They work well for
> common people like myself and for most people who need to know the
> basicas to be able to work,  adapting those programs to the specific
> problems of our jobs or further study.  That basic training,  enables
> us to face the challenges the real world presents to all who work
> and/or study."
>
>     cjl - Here, I suspect that Carlos is confusing the Sugar Learning
> environment with the workplace tools he is familiar with.  This is
> understandable, this confusion with the goals of Sugar exists widely
> and can be hard to overcome.  Apparently OLPC has lost deployment
> opportunities because an XO cannot be used to provide vocational
> training in Microsoft Office.  Int4erestingly, even the smallest steps
> to allow Windows to run on an XO by tweaking the open firmware
> produced vehement reactions within the community.
>
>     cjl - To paraphrase the Haggadah (the Jewish service for the
> Passover meal) it is incumbent on us to ask and answer the question:
> "Why is this OS different from all other OSes?"
>
> "In a few words,  my opinion is Sugar does not work.  Those who think
> otherwise,  should just follow the messages in the mail lists,
> preferrably those in Spanish,  the language of Uruguay and several
> other countries, or become a volunteer and live with the problems."
>
>     cjl - A not unjustified call for listening closely to the
> feedback that is given (mostly in Spanish) and to live with real-world
> deployment issues.  Again  I see this as a clarion call for more
> engagement.
>
> "Why doesn´t it work?"
>
> "I will offer my best ignorant´s opinion.  Anyone with an answer
> closer to the truth,  please explain it to us so we continue living in
> armony and progressing for everybody´s benefit."
>
> "I will explain,  using an imaginary example,  my opinion on why Sugar
> doesn´t even get close to the reliability and usefullness level of the
> other systems we mentioned."
>
>     cjl - I have to give him some points on the reliability concern,
> I would have to ask the question of "usefulness" by asking "usefulness
> for what purpose", back to the learning tool versus workplace tool
> issue.
>
> "Let´s think of Apple,  currently the most successful company in the
> business,  at world level.  It acquired its good reputation offering
> devices that work well since we open the box and programs that most of
> us can learn how to use with good results within a short time."
>
>     cjl - Regardless of your feelings about Apple, this is not an
> inaccurate description of some elements that have contributed to their
> success.  Let's please accept that responding to this by getting into
> discussions about Apple would be a distraction, so let's avoid doing
> that.
>
> "Let´s imagine now that Apple directors decide to save money by firing
> all the great programmers they employ,  dedicated to write their
> operating systems.  Let´s imagine they decide that a group of
> volunteers,  worldwide, with a horizontal organization without chiefs,
>  is the latest model in modern business management.  What would
> happen?  How much longer would Apple survive?  Days?  Hours?
>
> I am neither complaining, nor criticizing the past or the present."
>
>    cjl - Well, this is a bit of rehashing OLPC's decision-making
> around supporting Sugar that lead to the spin out of Sugar Labs back
> in May 2008.  I really, really don't want to re-litigate that, it is
> water long under the bridge.  Those of us who were around at that time
> remember it as a time of high passions and recriminations, some were
> even moved to express themselves in outrageous forms
> (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Random_musings) just to
> exorcise those demons and move forward with the important work at
> hand.
>
> "Thanks to Sugar and to many other organizations and persons,  Plan
> Ceibal started,  it accomplished tremendous progress and it is where
> it is today.  Let´s congratulate all those who helped bring it to this
> point,  from those who made the big decisions,  to OLPC and each and
> all teachers, students, relatives and volunteers."
>
>    cjl - An acknowledgement that OLPC and Sugar have changed the
> nature of the discourse around ICT and learning.
>
> "Wouldn´t this be the time to recognize Sugar is what is currently
> preventing us to move ahead,  and to dedicate all our tremendous
> collective intelligence and energy to continue moving ahead?  Anyone
> may trip on a roadblock.  We have to get up and continue on our way.
> We cannot let a program that has problems stop everything."
>
>     cjl - Sounds like a call to "throw the baby out with the
> bathwater", I can't say I agree with this conclusion, but Carlos is
> certainly not the first to make this point.  This is an opportunity to
> engage Carlos in a discussion about the core principles behind Sugar
> and to examine our own efforts to see how we may be falling short of
> achieving those principles.
>
> "I am happy to see Plan Ceibal is not sleeping and every day is
> introducing or considering very interesting ideas.  I see Portal
> Ceibal shows information on Khan Academy and Sugata Mitra,  among
> other education ideas that are calling the attention of many people
> around the world today."
>
>    cjl - Here Carlos is suggesting that Sugar and an XO laptop alone
> are not the solution to all problems, a conclusion I heartily agree
> with.  It fails to acknowledge what Sugar and XOs make possible, but I
> will not quibble there, I will join him in celebrating the ingenuity
> of local deployments and even children in appropriating the tools they
> have adopted and reworking them to meet their own needs and desires.
> At this point I am tempted to shout "Hallelujah" or less aptly
> "Mission Accomplished".  The appropriation of the tools and technology
> by local communities is the end-game we all seek (I think).
>
>    cjl - What this leaves out is the sincere desire of Sugar Labs to
> gather that creative energy back from the deployments and share it
> with other deployments around the world.  Let's be honest in admitting
> we just don't do this well enough (yet).  I myself would like to see
> OLE Nepal's materials translated into English and hosted on Pootle for
> anyone to localize into their language of choice (just as an example).
>  This returns us to the need for deeper and more meaningful engagement
> to harvest both the good and the bad from deployments.
>
>     cjl - Kenneth, that is how I read Carlos's message.  It may not
> be what he really meant to say and he may not like how I characterize
> some of his points, but this is just my opinion, which you *did* ask
> for,  You just didn't realize that I would actually give it to you :-)
>
> cjl
> _______________________________________________
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