[IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?

[Dr. Gerald Ardito]

Alan,

Thanks so much.
I am sure this will work well for us.

Best,
Gerald

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com> wrote:

> It's the "make a car you can drive yourself" one which starts with the
> painting of a car, scripting it to go in a circle, steering by modifying the
> script on the fly, adding a steering wheel, moving the steering wheel's
> heading to the car turn by, making a gear by dividing the heading by 3,
> making a car that will follow a track, etc.
>
> This has proved to be a great opening sequence with most 5th graders, and
> it goes best with one on one guidance. They learn a lot of things about
> Etoys (we counted about 35) and the next few months projects can be done
> with what they encounter in their first half hour or so.
>
> It is extremely difficult to pull off in a mass class with either children
> or adults because of the range of pace and what it takes for individuals to
> get it, and what questions and prompts they need. Kind of a perfect example
> where "mass class" loses badly and one on one is very efficient and
> effective.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito <gerald.ardito at gmail.com>
> *To:* Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Caroline Meeks <caroline at solutiongrove.com>; Cherry Withers <
> cwithers at ekindling.org>; danielgastelu at yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara <
> paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>; Steve Thomas <stevesargon at gmail.com>; iaep <
> iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 6:00:52 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
>
> Alan,
>
> Thanks for this.
> I am just beginning to work with our 5th grade students and teachers and
> will put this into action.
>
> One question for you, if I may. Can you tell me about the first Etoys
> lesson you mentioned (with 35 things in 30 minutes)?
>
> Thanks again.
> Gerald
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gerald,
>>
>> Yes, I think the "experts" approach is a good one also -- we first saw it
>> used by Betty Edwards (the drawing teacher) and it works very well if the
>> ratio is about 1 expert to 6 or 7 learners or better.
>>
>> And we have tried this with Etoys (mostly on adult teachers).
>>
>> However, of all the ways we've tried, doing one on ones, and then using
>> the new learners as one on one teachers for the next group (so you are
>> doubling each time) works the best (and is also the most efficient with
>> regard to how much time it takes to successfully do the first Etoys exercise
>> -- in which the learners do and learn about 35 things in about 30 minutes).
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito <gerald.ardito at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com>
>> *Cc:* Caroline Meeks <caroline at solutiongrove.com>; Cherry Withers <
>> cwithers at ekindling.org>; danielgastelu at yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara <
>> paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>; Steve Thomas <stevesargon at gmail.com>; iaep
>> <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>> *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 4:31:13 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
>>
>> Alan,
>>
>> First, I just want to clarify that I meant "challenged" in a positive way.
>> The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through
>> scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a
>> pedagogical approach. We saw this, too.
>>
>> Our learning situation involved 4-6 student "experts" with whom I spent
>> time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project.
>> Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these "experts" were
>> free to move around the room helping other students.
>>
>> We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive
>> classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my
>> dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent
>> more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills
>> enough.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Gerald
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These
>>> were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers
>>> (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any "challenged" 5th
>>> graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes.
>>> The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use "a
>>> spreading wave" of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both
>>> children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass.
>>>
>>> So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot
>>> of "challenged" students result from such artifacts).
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito <gerald.ardito at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* Caroline Meeks <caroline at solutiongrove.com>
>>> *Cc:* Cherry Withers <cwithers at ekindling.org>;
>>> danielgastelu at yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara <paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>;
>>> Steve Thomas <stevesargon at gmail.com>; iaep <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>>> *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
>>>
>>> Caroline,
>>>
>>> You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis.
>>>
>>> The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that
>>> hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the
>>> 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also
>>> do plenty of "painting" of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the
>>> bricks seems to match their thinking process.
>>>
>>> I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch
>>> and am looking forward to that.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> Gerald
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks <
>>> caroline at solutiongrove.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and
>>>> eToys to 5th and 8th graders.
>>>>
>>>> Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering.
>>>>
>>>> I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the
>>>> 5th graders took to eToys more.
>>>>
>>>> Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and
>>>> that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system
>>>> before they have to start understanding programming.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with
>>>> programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch.
>>>>
>>>> This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data
>>>> but it would be interesting to explore further.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to
>>>>> join in.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas <stevesargon at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Edward,
>>>>> > Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be
>>>>> more
>>>>> > "easily discoverable" and I will work on it.
>>>>> > Stephen
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know
>>>>> >> where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could
>>>>> >> be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other
>>>>> >> education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more
>>>>> >> introductory modules.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover
>>>>> >> these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point
>>>>> >> is my Wiki page,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
>>>>> >> The undiscoverable  is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and
>>>>> >> solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find.
>>>>> >> These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS
>>>>> >> documentation.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind,
>>>>> >> which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara <
>>>>> paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> > The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex
>>>>> things in
>>>>> >> > all
>>>>> >> > of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each
>>>>> Activity
>>>>> >> > can
>>>>> >> > be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Tim
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers <
>>>>> cwithers at ekindling.org>
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it,  but it sounded
>>>>> >> >> logical
>>>>> >> >> to me.
>>>>> >> >> Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult
>>>>> tasks.
>>>>> >> >> To confirm this statement,  I add the phrase: "Visible learning,
>>>>> >> >> invisible
>>>>> >> >> technology".
>>>>> >> >> Children would first learn TurtleArt.
>>>>> >> >> When they outgrow it switch to Scratch.
>>>>> >> >> When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>>>> >> > IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
>>>>> >> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>>>>> >> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>>>>> >> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>>>> >> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
>>>>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>>>>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>>>>> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>>>> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Caroline Meeks
>>>> Solution Grove
>>>> Caroline at SolutionGrove.com
>>>>
>>>> 617-500-3488 - Office
>>>> 505-213-3268 - Fax
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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