[IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?

[Walter Bender]

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Alan Kay <alan.nemo at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Caroline,
>
> I think this is a good observation. And it's interesting because Etoys and
> Scratch were both done on top of Squeak, and by some of the same people.
> Originally Etoys was aimed at 5th graders and Scratch at high schoolers who
> dropped into afternoon computer clubs. There is a lot of overlap, and some
> important differences.
>
> The original Etoy interface was set up more like the current Scratch one
> (using lots of the screen to show tools and having a small construction
> area). This changed when we started working in schools with teachers and
> materials (this allowed a less immediately visible UI to be used and the
> entire screen to be used for construction). We stayed with this because of
> the small size of the XO's screen. But I don't think there's any question
> that the current Scratch interface is much much better for new users "off
> the street" if you have a large enough screen or can use iPad like scaling.
>
> And I think despite the small size of the XO, that we should have gone back
> to a much more visible interface for it and for general use as gotten from
> the web etc.

The TurtleArt approach is similar to Etoys, except you can show/hide
all of the construction work as an overlay over the workspace with
just one mouse click or keyboard shortcut. Might be a compromise worth
exploring further.

regards.

-walter

>
> There is much to be learned from both systems.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Caroline Meeks <caroline at solutiongrove.com>
> To: Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com>
> Cc: Cherry Withers <cwithers at ekindling.org>; Tim McNamara
> <paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>; danielgastelu at yahoo.com.ar; Gerald Ardito
> <gerald.ardito at gmail.com>; Steve Thomas <stevesargon at gmail.com>; iaep
> <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:21:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
>
> Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and
> eToys to 5th and 8th graders.
> Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering.
> I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th
> graders took to eToys more.
> Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is
> very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they
> have to start understanding programming.
> On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming
> and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch.
> This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it
> would be interesting to explore further.
>
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join
>> in.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas <stevesargon at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Edward,
>> > Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more
>> > "easily discoverable" and I will work on it.
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know
>> >> where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could
>> >> be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other
>> >> education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more
>> >> introductory modules.
>> >>
>> >> Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover
>> >> these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the
>> >> middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point
>> >> is my Wiki page,
>> >>
>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable
>> >>
>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
>> >> The undiscoverable  is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and
>> >> solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find.
>> >> These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS
>> >> documentation.
>> >>
>> >> The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind,
>> >> which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara
>> >> <paperless at timmcnamara.co.nz>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things
>> >> > in
>> >> > all
>> >> > of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each
>> >> > Activity
>> >> > can
>> >> > be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tim
>> >> >
>> >> > On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers <cwithers at ekindling.org>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it,  but it sounded
>> >> >> logical
>> >> >> to me.
>> >> >> Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult tasks.
>> >> >> To confirm this statement,  I add the phrase: "Visible learning,
>> >> >> invisible
>> >> >> technology".
>> >> >> Children would first learn TurtleArt.
>> >> >> When they outgrow it switch to Scratch.
>> >> >> When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys.
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> >> > IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
>> >> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>> >> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>> >> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> >> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
> --
> Caroline Meeks
> Solution Grove
> Caroline at SolutionGrove.com
>
> 617-500-3488 - Office
> 505-213-3268 - Fax
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>



-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org