[IAEP] 90% fluency Re: Granny Cloud

[Yamandu Ploskonka]

For the record, I actually did agree with the guy, and when given a 
chance to present to that same group one week later, used this very 
concept together with a picture I took in Nepal of an old gentleman, as 
part of my talk (and I used Prezi, which was quite impressive... :-)

OTOH, agreeing with such way of handling data has seriously messed up 
with my compass for valid, evidence-based scientific data, which is why 
my request to understand better what Alan meant by 90% fluency...

On 11/02/2010 03:30 PM, Caryl Bigenho wrote:
> Hi All...
>
> A bit of family history to shed light on my opinion on this...
>
> My Irish great-grandmother was unable to read and write when her first 
> children were born, back in the 1860's (she was born at the start of 
> the Potato Famine).  She signed their birth certificates with an "X." 
> Within a couple of years of that (probable embarrassment) she was able 
> to sign her name.  By 1904, when the only photo I have seen of her was 
> taken (just before she died), she posed with a book... a la Whistler's 
> Mother. And I have a copy of a letter she wrote in the late 1890's. 
> Being able to sign her name was the first step on her road to 
> literacy. It can be the same for the folks in Bolivia, or anywhere 
> else... regardless of their age.
>
> Caryl
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:12:36 -0500
> From: yamaplos at gmail.com
> To: alan.nemo at yahoo.com
> CC: iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org; kksubbu.ml at gmail.com
> Subject: [IAEP] 90% fluency Re: Granny Cloud
>
> When I was in Bolivia recently I happened to be present at a rather 
> high-level meeting where the matter of the literacy rate of Ecuador 
> was being discussed, and criticism of those critisizing it got 
> criticized - apparently UNICEF or one other such agency had disputed a 
> 1% gain claimed by the government, who then had to retract its figures.
>
> The main point had to do with "the breach".  Apparently or so we were 
> told, you can and should be able to count success in literacy even in 
> cases that all you have been able to achieve with that 70-year-old 
> peasant was to get him to recognize his name, or write it when 
> prompted, and people who don't count that as a gain in absolute 
> literacy figures for the country are plain evil imperialist 
> capitalistic goons or their equivalent.
>
> In this context it surprises me less that many projects simply are not 
> interested in cause-effect research, based in objective data, 
> regarding OLPC or any of such. Qualitative research is in, as valid 
> and acceptable, and so is perception-based data and interviews rather 
> than actual event/fact observation, and technicalities are used to 
> debunk data-based reports (this later actually might be fair, if they 
> play by the rules).
>
> Because we do not have suitably globally agreed-on scales and answers, 
> answers that are consistent at the same time with evidence-based 
> research, political correctness, and respect for the downtrodden, we 
> are a bit stuck when it comes to say if we are - where? - somewhere...
>
> As to myself, I will not dispute the claims by our President, Evo 
> Morales, and his government, that we have, in Bolivia, achieved 100% 
> literacy.  There are, so I've been told by some of the very people who 
> have arrived to that number, solid reasons and evidence that shows 
> such an excellent goal and need has been met.
>
> Now, y'all at PARC, do you have some definitions that clarify what it 
> is they meant by 90% fluency?
> They are crucial, no doubt...  is that like 10% less than 100%?
>
>
>
> As to drop making technology available for the top quartiles just 
> because the low quartile is not getting any benefit, I have no words.
>
> It is very nice to want to close the breach, to want to help the 
> least, but if the only way to more equality is by setting up a lower 
> ceiling for those who actually could benefit at the least cost, then 
> we are totally messed up, it certainly is NOT unimportant.
>
> A colleague in the Sur list was mentioning "residual cognitive 
> benefits" in the form of new brain circuits.  When I think on how much 
> more expensive it is to get a good education to a kid with low 
> socioeconomics than it is to a better-off one, besides the whole issue 
> of context I worry on how we do not realize the consequences, 
> importance and additional cost to go that extra mile - and in doing 
> so, refrain from discriminating against those who do not need all of 
> that effort, those whose 2-parent households get hit by taxes and 
> their own expenses as they do some of the push.  I know it gets silly 
> very fast, but in real world terms, let us not pretend we are 
> surprised by the higher XO breakage rates among urban poor kids in 
> Uruguay, or the low breakage amongst the even poorer in Nepal, when we 
> know that one of those pretends that equality happens by saying so, 
> and the other carefully builds and together with the interested 
> parties prepares for difficult scenarios.
>
> Alas,
>
> Yama
>
>
>
> On 11/02/2010 10:51 AM, Alan Kay wrote:
>
>     To me, this is the main point.
>
>     Years ago (at PARC) we decided that in any meaningful world, we
>     needed to help 90% of the learners achieve real fluency (or judge
>     our methods to be not good enough). Both the "90%" and "real
>     fluency" are crucial (the latter is often abandoned when the
>     former is held to be important).
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Alan
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* K. K. Subramaniam <kksubbu.ml at gmail.com>
>     <mailto:kksubbu.ml at gmail.com>
>     *To:* iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org <mailto:iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
>     *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 7:45:47 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Granny Cloud
>
>     On Tuesday 02 Nov 2010 8:17:34 am Caryl Bigenho wrote:
>     > Hi All...
>     > Here is a concise article that summarizes Sugata Mitra's work
>     with the
>     > "Granny Cloud."  Note he says a 1 to 1 model doesn't work. He
>     uses 4 to 1.
>     > http://dnc.digitalunite.com/2010/07/29/granny-cloud-to-teach-children-via-
>     > the-internet/
>     I would be wary of reaching any specific conclusion from such
>     experiments. This
>     is not to discourage new experiments but to highlight the fact the
>     need of the
>     hours are interventions that ensures that the number of students
>     who are *not
>     learning* should provably *decrease* during a three year window.
>
>     When we throw technology X or method Y at the education problem
>     and make the
>     top two quartiles learn better but leave the bottom quartile out
>     cold, then
>     such a tech/method is a nice but unimportant development for
>     tacking education
>     issues we face today.
>
>     Subbu
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