[IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not

[Gary C Martin]

Hi Kathy,

On 8 May 2009, at 23:28, Kathy Pusztavari wrote:

> David,
>
> Do you have any good links for those of us just starting?  Links  
> that would
> answer how to install python, how to interface with sugar from a  
> different
> platform (XP, Mac), sugar specific issues in developing activities in
> python?

The Activity Team resources page is a good place to have a browse:

	http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activity_Team/Resources

If you're working on a Mac, Python will already be there to start  
experimenting with (open up a terminal window and type python, this  
will give you an interactive python shell you can tinker about and  
test the language out in). To get deeper, if you have an Intel Mac  
(i.e not PPC), then you can install Suns VirtualBox and run a fully  
emulated Sugar environment for easy hacking (this should also be an  
option if you want to use your XP box).

I seem to remember...

	http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar_Activity_Tutorial

...as being a useful hello_world starter for me, I note that it is a  
little out of date now (a bunch of unnecessary steps) but should still  
work fine (worth a quick skim at least). For me the best place to  
learn is to go and pick you way through an existing activities code,  
you don't have to understand it all but you'll see the rough template  
most folks are building to. I think my Moon activity code is  
reasonably simple (i.e not much really going on) if you want to give  
it a look:

	http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/moon/repos/mainline/trees/master

Do others think the hello_world template is worth migrating and  
updating as a 'first blood' resource for the activity team pages? I'm  
willing to move and tidy it up.

Regards,
--Gary

> -Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [mailto:iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of David Farning
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:22 PM
> To: Kathy Pusztavari
> Cc: iaep
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Kathy Pusztavari <kathy at kathyandcalvin.com 
> >
> wrote:
>> I'll have to admit I don't have much right to request, complain, or
>> even discuss.  If I don't get off my butt and program something  
>> myself
>> then I'm part of the problem.
>>
>> But I'll tell you, it is difficult to start in this programming
>> environment where the learning curve is extremely steep (coming from
>> Oracle and PL/SQL stored procedures).  I'm still trying to figure out
>> WHERE to start playing with Python let alone how.
>
> Kathy,
> Developer documentation is currently a huge hole for Sugar Labs.   
> So, if you
> are interested in contributing that would be a great place to start.
>
> david
>
>> -Kathy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> [mailto:iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of Walter Bender
>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:26 AM
>> To: Bill Kerr
>> Cc: iaep; Sugar-dev Devel
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not
>>
>> One of the real pleasures of this adventure we are on is that there
>> has been thoughtful criticism of ideas. I cannot get away with vague
>> or sloppy thinking.
>>
>> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:37 AM, Bill Kerr <billkerr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm not sure what is meant by a "big tent"
>>>
>>> Why do some people want a big tent for learning theory but not a big
>>> tent which accepts both FOSS and proprietary software? Phrasing it
>>> that way is intended to encourage people to think about what sort of
>>> thing is learning and hopefully will not be interpreted as just  
>>> being
>>> provocative for its own sake.
>>
>> FOSS is a theory of learning. We don't need to reach consensus about
>> either learning theory or FOSS, but to be members of this community,
>> we must agree that we can progress from critique to making positive
> changes.
>>
>>> you can have a big tent where people don't discuss learning theory
>>> because it's too hard to reach agreement
>>>
>>> you can have a big tent where people passionately argue about
>>> learning theory but actually listen to what each is saying and argue
>>> rationally
>>>
>>> when I look at minsky's theory of mind I see that he supports
>>> multiple models of thinking but also argues against models of
>>> thinking that he thinks are incorrect or which emphasise only one  
>>> way
>>> of doing things, eg. although he helped create connectionism he now
>>> thinks it has too much influence
>>
>> As Martin points out, Sugar Labs is building tools. But we are not
>> agnostic about how they are used. We are deliberately building
>> affordances into our tools to encourage and promote learning
>> activities that are "C" in their nature, because we believe that that
>> is the principle means by which learners will reach a level of  
>> fluency
>> as described by Alan. But the tools can be used in support of other
>> learning theories and, to rephrase Minsky, "if you don't learn  
>> something
> more than one way, you don't learn it."
>>
>>> that suggests another version of a big tent which I favour - cherry
>>> picking the best parts out of different learning theories /
>>> activities based on criteria (not stated here) that are substantial
>>
>> I wear an engineer's hat: "What is the best solution I can build
>> today?" not a scientist's hat: "What is the best possible solution?"
>> Ergo, +1 for cherry picking.
>>
>>>
>>> I don't believe that thinking people are agnostic about how people
>>> learn
>>>
>>> it seems to me that alan kay has presented a possibly strategic view
>>> of progress on these questions (that learning about bricks will not
>>> automatically lead to building arches, that we need more than just
>>> focusing on building blocks) - but that for various reasons we are
>>> not in a position to implement the learning materials based on that
>>> view in practice in the activities
>>>
>>> for me to sit in the big tent holding a strategic view feels
>>> different to "too hard basket", agnosticism or a tower of babble -
>>> teaching with an underlying strategic view is very different to just
>>> going along with the tide
>>
>> The analogy to "big tent" perhaps needs more of an explanation for
>> those not living day-to-day in earshot of the US political dialog.
>> Republican President Ronald Reagan referred to his party as a big  
>> tent
>> in the days of his popular majority. The current party is being
>> accused of (or admired for) being more fundamentalist in its  
>> ideology;
>> this "either your are with us or against us" approach has arguably
>> resulted in a greatly contracted constituency: there are more people
>> who identify themselves as Independents than as Republicans. As a
>> result, it is being asserted both from within and without that the
>> Republicans have excluded themselves from the debate.
>>
>> We must engage teachers and learners even if we do not have consensus
>> on all aspects of learning theories, FOSS, or Sugar. Without the
>> engagement, we don't grow. Even more important, without the  
>> engagement, we
> don't learn.
>> That doesn't mean we don't have opinions or direction.
>>
>>>
>>> that would mean work to understand and implement that strategic view
>>> but also accept that we are not there yet (it will take some time)
>>> and so it is perfectably understandable and desirable that people
>>> will use and develop whatever is at hand or which they think
>>> important to develop - no one can stop that anyway accept by
>>> successful arguing someone out of a POV
>>
>> We have a long ways to go and we need to keep debating as we go. But
>> also we need to continue "doing". And always be asking "Are there
>> other ways to approach this?" and "How might we make this better?"
>>
>>> Does the "big tent" phrase add clarity to this conversation?
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps not. But the discussion adds clarity to the overall mission  
>> of
>> Sugar Labs.
>>
>> -walter
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
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