[IAEP] versus, not

[Edward Cherlin]

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Kathy Pusztavari
<kathy at kathyandcalvin.com> wrote:
> "DI works up to a point for appropriate subject matter. The point at which
> it fails to work adequately, regardless of subject matter, is in the
> development of the learner's ability to learn without further instruction."
>
> Wow, do you have evidence of that?  I mean, are you saying that Project
> Follow Through was a billion dollar scam with tens of thousands of unwitting
> students in the research group?

My apologies. I was not clear enough. I meant to say that DI _as
Albert has described it_ in past discussions has this deficiency, not
as practiced by the experts, about whom I still know too little. Could
you put the necessary references on the Wiki?

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Education_Team/Education_Bibliographies

> To this day, I fight the myth that Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) creates
> robots when used with children with autism.  Teachers look at my son and
> actually tell me to my face, wow, he certain doesn't have robot like issues.
> This is because in an early behavior program, youngsters with autism often
> don't even know how to copy your words or actions.  But you build up from
> there.  You move up to identifying things.  Then identifying features and
> functions.  Then answering and asking questions.

+1

> Just because everything is broken down in DI (much like my ABA example
> above) doesn't mean that they can't be built up into very, very complex
> ideas, skills, and knowledge.  With basic skills and knowledge, these kids
> now have the tools to generalize.  In fact, if you look at kids with autism,
> they are a wonderful test group.  They are often unmotivated to learn.  Not
> succeeding really turns them off to learning.  These kids aren't necessarily
> mentally retarded, just very unmotivated.  Yet DI seems to work with them.

Einstein believed that he was autistic, with greatly delayed speech
and an inability to conform to the norms of the educational system he
was in. I have "autistic spectrum" friends in the geek world.

I have no doubt that DI works with autistic children. It would make
far more sense to them than the nonsense and even outright lies of
conventional teaching. What I find works best with any children is to
regard them as human, and to take account of their states of mind,
something that no lockstep factory automation model can do.

> I'm not the only one who thinks kids with autism are a good canary in the
> coal mine, so did BF Skinner when he wrote "Verbal Behavior" - essentially
> how to teach communication.  Just because I use kids with autism as examples
> doesn't mean this information doesn't transfer to typical kids - it really
> does - just at an earlier age.

Yes, that should go into the Wiki, too.

> -Kathy "I don't think so" Pusztavari
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward Cherlin [mailto:echerlin at gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 3:46 PM
> To: Albert Cahalan
> Cc: solutiongrove at gmail.com; kathy at kathyandcalvin.com; iaep
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] versus, not
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 2:31 AM, Albert Cahalan <acahalan at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Around here
>> it often seems I'm the only person willing to accept that the
>> independently reviewed evidence favors Direct Instruction. It's like
>> some kind of idealistic reality denial is going on.
>
> By no means, Albert. You are the only person insisting that DI works, and
> everything else doesn't. It's like some kind of Nominalist reality denial is
> going on. ^_^
>
> You argue in precisely the manner of the British ship captain who conducted
> the _second_ clinical trial of orange juice against scurvy, after the
> successful first trial. He had the juice boiled down "to concentrate the
> active ingredient" (thus decomposing all of the Vitamin C/ascorbic acid).
> His vigorous use of his tainted study held back adoption of citrus in the
> British Navy for years, and killed a significant number of sailors. The fact
> that _you_ don't know how to use a method fails to make that method
> worthless.
>
> DI works up to a point for appropriate subject matter. The point at which it
> fails to work adequately, regardless of subject matter, is in the
> development of the learner's ability to learn without further instruction.
> --
> Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name And Children
> are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
> http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin)
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>

Could you set your mail software to use Unicode, please? I intend to
use math on this list, not just weird Furn Languages. +-×÷√∫≤≥∆∇

-- 
Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin)