[IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not

[Kathy Pusztavari]

David,

Do you have any good links for those of us just starting?  Links that would
answer how to install python, how to interface with sugar from a different
platform (XP, Mac), sugar specific issues in developing activities in
python?

-Kathy

-----Original Message-----
From: iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org
[mailto:iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of David Farning
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:22 PM
To: Kathy Pusztavari
Cc: iaep
Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Kathy Pusztavari <kathy at kathyandcalvin.com>
wrote:
> I'll have to admit I don't have much right to request, complain, or 
> even discuss.  If I don't get off my butt and program something myself 
> then I'm part of the problem.
>
> But I'll tell you, it is difficult to start in this programming 
> environment where the learning curve is extremely steep (coming from 
> Oracle and PL/SQL stored procedures).  I'm still trying to figure out 
> WHERE to start playing with Python let alone how.

Kathy,
Developer documentation is currently a huge hole for Sugar Labs.  So, if you
are interested in contributing that would be a great place to start.

david

> -Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org 
> [mailto:iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of Walter Bender
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:26 AM
> To: Bill Kerr
> Cc: iaep; Sugar-dev Devel
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not
>
> One of the real pleasures of this adventure we are on is that there 
> has been thoughtful criticism of ideas. I cannot get away with vague 
> or sloppy thinking.
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:37 AM, Bill Kerr <billkerr at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure what is meant by a "big tent"
>>
>> Why do some people want a big tent for learning theory but not a big 
>> tent which accepts both FOSS and proprietary software? Phrasing it 
>> that way is intended to encourage people to think about what sort of 
>> thing is learning and hopefully will not be interpreted as just being 
>> provocative for its own sake.
>
> FOSS is a theory of learning. We don't need to reach consensus about 
> either learning theory or FOSS, but to be members of this community, 
> we must agree that we can progress from critique to making positive
changes.
>
>> you can have a big tent where people don't discuss learning theory 
>> because it's too hard to reach agreement
>>
>> you can have a big tent where people passionately argue about 
>> learning theory but actually listen to what each is saying and argue 
>> rationally
>>
>> when I look at minsky's theory of mind I see that he supports 
>> multiple models of thinking but also argues against models of 
>> thinking that he thinks are incorrect or which emphasise only one way 
>> of doing things, eg. although he helped create connectionism he now 
>> thinks it has too much influence
>
> As Martin points out, Sugar Labs is building tools. But we are not 
> agnostic about how they are used. We are deliberately building 
> affordances into our tools to encourage and promote learning 
> activities that are "C" in their nature, because we believe that that 
> is the principle means by which learners will reach a level of fluency 
> as described by Alan. But the tools can be used in support of other 
> learning theories and, to rephrase Minsky, "if you don't learn something
more than one way, you don't learn it."
>
>> that suggests another version of a big tent which I favour - cherry 
>> picking the best parts out of different learning theories / 
>> activities based on criteria (not stated here) that are substantial
>
> I wear an engineer's hat: "What is the best solution I can build 
> today?" not a scientist's hat: "What is the best possible solution?"
> Ergo, +1 for cherry picking.
>
>>
>> I don't believe that thinking people are agnostic about how people 
>> learn
>>
>> it seems to me that alan kay has presented a possibly strategic view 
>> of progress on these questions (that learning about bricks will not 
>> automatically lead to building arches, that we need more than just 
>> focusing on building blocks) - but that for various reasons we are 
>> not in a position to implement the learning materials based on that 
>> view in practice in the activities
>>
>> for me to sit in the big tent holding a strategic view feels 
>> different to "too hard basket", agnosticism or a tower of babble - 
>> teaching with an underlying strategic view is very different to just 
>> going along with the tide
>
> The analogy to "big tent" perhaps needs more of an explanation for 
> those not living day-to-day in earshot of the US political dialog.
> Republican President Ronald Reagan referred to his party as a big tent 
> in the days of his popular majority. The current party is being 
> accused of (or admired for) being more fundamentalist in its ideology; 
> this "either your are with us or against us" approach has arguably 
> resulted in a greatly contracted constituency: there are more people 
> who identify themselves as Independents than as Republicans. As a 
> result, it is being asserted both from within and without that the 
> Republicans have excluded themselves from the debate.
>
> We must engage teachers and learners even if we do not have consensus 
> on all aspects of learning theories, FOSS, or Sugar. Without the 
> engagement, we don't grow. Even more important, without the engagement, we
don't learn.
> That doesn't mean we don't have opinions or direction.
>
>>
>> that would mean work to understand and implement that strategic view 
>> but also accept that we are not there yet (it will take some time) 
>> and so it is perfectably understandable and desirable that people 
>> will use and develop whatever is at hand or which they think 
>> important to develop - no one can stop that anyway accept by 
>> successful arguing someone out of a POV
>
> We have a long ways to go and we need to keep debating as we go. But 
> also we need to continue "doing". And always be asking "Are there 
> other ways to approach this?" and "How might we make this better?"
>
>> Does the "big tent" phrase add clarity to this conversation?
>>
>
> Perhaps not. But the discussion adds clarity to the overall mission of 
> Sugar Labs.
>
> -walter
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
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