[IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not

[David Farning]

Should be developer documentation.  Argggg
david

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Farning <dfarning at sugarlabs.org> wrote:
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Kathy Pusztavari
> <kathy at kathyandcalvin.com> wrote:
>> I'll have to admit I don't have much right to request, complain, or even
>> discuss.  If I don't get off my butt and program something myself then I'm
>> part of the problem.
>>
>> But I'll tell you, it is difficult to start in this programming environment
>> where the learning curve is extremely steep (coming from Oracle and PL/SQL
>> stored procedures).  I'm still trying to figure out WHERE to start playing
>> with Python let alone how.
>
> Kathy,
> Developer is currently a huge hole for Sugar Labs.  So, if you are
> interested in contributing that would be a great place to start.
>
> david
>
>> -Kathy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org
>> [mailto:iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of Walter Bender
>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:26 AM
>> To: Bill Kerr
>> Cc: iaep; Sugar-dev Devel
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not
>>
>> One of the real pleasures of this adventure we are on is that there has been
>> thoughtful criticism of ideas. I cannot get away with vague or sloppy
>> thinking.
>>
>> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:37 AM, Bill Kerr <billkerr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm not sure what is meant by a "big tent"
>>>
>>> Why do some people want a big tent for learning theory but not a big
>>> tent which accepts both FOSS and proprietary software? Phrasing it
>>> that way is intended to encourage people to think about what sort of
>>> thing is learning and hopefully will not be interpreted as just being
>>> provocative for its own sake.
>>
>> FOSS is a theory of learning. We don't need to reach consensus about either
>> learning theory or FOSS, but to be members of this community, we must agree
>> that we can progress from critique to making positive changes.
>>
>>> you can have a big tent where people don't discuss learning theory
>>> because it's too hard to reach agreement
>>>
>>> you can have a big tent where people passionately argue about learning
>>> theory but actually listen to what each is saying and argue rationally
>>>
>>> when I look at minsky's theory of mind I see that he supports multiple
>>> models of thinking but also argues against models of thinking that he
>>> thinks are incorrect or which emphasise only one way of doing things,
>>> eg. although he helped create connectionism he now thinks it has too
>>> much influence
>>
>> As Martin points out, Sugar Labs is building tools. But we are not agnostic
>> about how they are used. We are deliberately building affordances into our
>> tools to encourage and promote learning activities that are "C" in their
>> nature, because we believe that that is the principle means by which
>> learners will reach a level of fluency as described by Alan. But the tools
>> can be used in support of other learning theories and, to rephrase Minsky,
>> "if you don't learn something more than one way, you don't learn it."
>>
>>> that suggests another version of a big tent which I favour - cherry
>>> picking the best parts out of different learning theories / activities
>>> based on criteria (not stated here) that are substantial
>>
>> I wear an engineer's hat: "What is the best solution I can build today?" not
>> a scientist's hat: "What is the best possible solution?"
>> Ergo, +1 for cherry picking.
>>
>>>
>>> I don't believe that thinking people are agnostic about how people
>>> learn
>>>
>>> it seems to me that alan kay has presented a possibly strategic view
>>> of progress on these questions (that learning about bricks will not
>>> automatically lead to building arches, that we need more than just
>>> focusing on building blocks) - but that for various reasons we are not
>>> in a position to implement the learning materials based on that view
>>> in practice in the activities
>>>
>>> for me to sit in the big tent holding a strategic view feels different
>>> to "too hard basket", agnosticism or a tower of babble - teaching with
>>> an underlying strategic view is very different to just going along
>>> with the tide
>>
>> The analogy to "big tent" perhaps needs more of an explanation for those not
>> living day-to-day in earshot of the US political dialog.
>> Republican President Ronald Reagan referred to his party as a big tent in
>> the days of his popular majority. The current party is being accused of (or
>> admired for) being more fundamentalist in its ideology; this "either your
>> are with us or against us" approach has arguably resulted in a greatly
>> contracted constituency: there are more people who identify themselves as
>> Independents than as Republicans. As a result, it is being asserted both
>> from within and without that the Republicans have excluded themselves from
>> the debate.
>>
>> We must engage teachers and learners even if we do not have consensus on all
>> aspects of learning theories, FOSS, or Sugar. Without the engagement, we
>> don't grow. Even more important, without the engagement, we don't learn.
>> That doesn't mean we don't have opinions or direction.
>>
>>>
>>> that would mean work to understand and implement that strategic view
>>> but also accept that we are not there yet (it will take some time) and
>>> so it is perfectably understandable and desirable that people will use
>>> and develop whatever is at hand or which they think important to
>>> develop - no one can stop that anyway accept by successful arguing
>>> someone out of a POV
>>
>> We have a long ways to go and we need to keep debating as we go. But also we
>> need to continue "doing". And always be asking "Are there other ways to
>> approach this?" and "How might we make this better?"
>>
>>> Does the "big tent" phrase add clarity to this conversation?
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps not. But the discussion adds clarity to the overall mission of Sugar
>> Labs.
>>
>> -walter
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
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