[IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not

[David Farning]

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Kathy Pusztavari
<kathy at kathyandcalvin.com> wrote:
> I'll have to admit I don't have much right to request, complain, or even
> discuss.  If I don't get off my butt and program something myself then I'm
> part of the problem.
>
> But I'll tell you, it is difficult to start in this programming environment
> where the learning curve is extremely steep (coming from Oracle and PL/SQL
> stored procedures).  I'm still trying to figure out WHERE to start playing
> with Python let alone how.

Kathy,
Developer is currently a huge hole for Sugar Labs.  So, if you are
interested in contributing that would be a great place to start.

david

> -Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org
> [mailto:iaep-bounces at lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of Walter Bender
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:26 AM
> To: Bill Kerr
> Cc: iaep; Sugar-dev Devel
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not
>
> One of the real pleasures of this adventure we are on is that there has been
> thoughtful criticism of ideas. I cannot get away with vague or sloppy
> thinking.
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:37 AM, Bill Kerr <billkerr at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure what is meant by a "big tent"
>>
>> Why do some people want a big tent for learning theory but not a big
>> tent which accepts both FOSS and proprietary software? Phrasing it
>> that way is intended to encourage people to think about what sort of
>> thing is learning and hopefully will not be interpreted as just being
>> provocative for its own sake.
>
> FOSS is a theory of learning. We don't need to reach consensus about either
> learning theory or FOSS, but to be members of this community, we must agree
> that we can progress from critique to making positive changes.
>
>> you can have a big tent where people don't discuss learning theory
>> because it's too hard to reach agreement
>>
>> you can have a big tent where people passionately argue about learning
>> theory but actually listen to what each is saying and argue rationally
>>
>> when I look at minsky's theory of mind I see that he supports multiple
>> models of thinking but also argues against models of thinking that he
>> thinks are incorrect or which emphasise only one way of doing things,
>> eg. although he helped create connectionism he now thinks it has too
>> much influence
>
> As Martin points out, Sugar Labs is building tools. But we are not agnostic
> about how they are used. We are deliberately building affordances into our
> tools to encourage and promote learning activities that are "C" in their
> nature, because we believe that that is the principle means by which
> learners will reach a level of fluency as described by Alan. But the tools
> can be used in support of other learning theories and, to rephrase Minsky,
> "if you don't learn something more than one way, you don't learn it."
>
>> that suggests another version of a big tent which I favour - cherry
>> picking the best parts out of different learning theories / activities
>> based on criteria (not stated here) that are substantial
>
> I wear an engineer's hat: "What is the best solution I can build today?" not
> a scientist's hat: "What is the best possible solution?"
> Ergo, +1 for cherry picking.
>
>>
>> I don't believe that thinking people are agnostic about how people
>> learn
>>
>> it seems to me that alan kay has presented a possibly strategic view
>> of progress on these questions (that learning about bricks will not
>> automatically lead to building arches, that we need more than just
>> focusing on building blocks) - but that for various reasons we are not
>> in a position to implement the learning materials based on that view
>> in practice in the activities
>>
>> for me to sit in the big tent holding a strategic view feels different
>> to "too hard basket", agnosticism or a tower of babble - teaching with
>> an underlying strategic view is very different to just going along
>> with the tide
>
> The analogy to "big tent" perhaps needs more of an explanation for those not
> living day-to-day in earshot of the US political dialog.
> Republican President Ronald Reagan referred to his party as a big tent in
> the days of his popular majority. The current party is being accused of (or
> admired for) being more fundamentalist in its ideology; this "either your
> are with us or against us" approach has arguably resulted in a greatly
> contracted constituency: there are more people who identify themselves as
> Independents than as Republicans. As a result, it is being asserted both
> from within and without that the Republicans have excluded themselves from
> the debate.
>
> We must engage teachers and learners even if we do not have consensus on all
> aspects of learning theories, FOSS, or Sugar. Without the engagement, we
> don't grow. Even more important, without the engagement, we don't learn.
> That doesn't mean we don't have opinions or direction.
>
>>
>> that would mean work to understand and implement that strategic view
>> but also accept that we are not there yet (it will take some time) and
>> so it is perfectably understandable and desirable that people will use
>> and develop whatever is at hand or which they think important to
>> develop - no one can stop that anyway accept by successful arguing
>> someone out of a POV
>
> We have a long ways to go and we need to keep debating as we go. But also we
> need to continue "doing". And always be asking "Are there other ways to
> approach this?" and "How might we make this better?"
>
>> Does the "big tent" phrase add clarity to this conversation?
>>
>
> Perhaps not. But the discussion adds clarity to the overall mission of Sugar
> Labs.
>
> -walter
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP at lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>