[IAEP] [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as CoreComponentofScience, Math Education
walter.bender at gmail.com
Sat Jan 3 11:24:02 EST 2009
@g: My favorite: "You don't know something until you know it in more
than three ways." -- Marvin Minsky
On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 10:09 AM, gerry_lowry (alliston ontario canada)
<gerry.lowry at abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com> wrote:
> k: =. kirby urner (partial quotes)
> g: =. gerry lowry (reponses to k)
> k: To say "your average student" subtracts info from my "pre-teen" as at least I was giving an age bracket.
> g: I'm referring to "average students" of any age. Individual nurtured growth is relevant to me.
> Age is merely a less relevant factor.
> k: "Given my premise that the XO, because of design and appearance, is really designed for
> pre secondary school aged kids (more for elementary)
> g: like this one: http://www.olpcnews.com/images/cherlin-xo.jpg B-)
> Sadly, I've not had the opportunity to experience an XO-1 personally and tactiley.
> Hence, I'm hopeful that the OLPC XO-1 will be useful to any person fortunate enough to have one.
> k: I am seeing the proposal to have J on the XO as a commitment to writing curriculum for the J language for pre-teens.
> g: currucula for all ages and abilities could be written for J on the XO.
> J's IDE "Studio, Labs..." capability facilitates electronic curricula for diverse age groups, et cetera.
> This in turn could substantially diminish need for paper based curricula.
> k: I'm a big believer in hybrid environments meaning we don't standardize on any one language or environment,
> aren't in any way trying to get everyone on the same page. No "national curriculum" (blech),
> no lock-stepping with ETS, a strategy that has destroyed a generation already,
> so no need to keep repeating that same mistake over and over.
> g: I'm reminded of the computing world's oft repeated mantra:
> "If your only tool is a hammer, then all of your problems will tend to look like nails".
> Also, the Perl community's TIMTOWTDI (There IS More Than One Way To Do It).
> In my own words, many tools make fine minds. Ken Iverson referred to "Notation as a tool of thought" *
> in his 1979 Turing award essay wherein Ken quoted A. N. Whitehead:
> "By relieving the brain of all unnecessary work, a good notation sets it free to concentrate
> on more advanced problems, and in effect increases the mental power of the race".
> *ACM SIGAPL APL Quote Quad, Volume 35 , Issue 1-2 (March, June 2007)
> In honor of Kenneth E. Iverson; Pages: 2 - 31; ISSN:0163-6006
> Communications of the ACM; Volume 23 , Issue 8 (August 1980) table of contents
> Pages: 444 - 465; ISSN:0001-0782
> ACM Turing award lectures book contents, Page: 1979; Year of Publication: 2007
> So I'm not implying "J way or no way". In fact, I'm very strongly opposed to such a restrictive idea.
> Rather, I'm simply saying J and the J IDE offer certain advantages for their inclusion in the
> "ships with installed" list for the OLPC XO-1. Of course, I'm powerless to do more than suggest this.
> I'd also like to see C++, FORTH, LISP, LOGO, Pascal, and PROLOG as part of the "ships with installed"
> list as well as a version of MASM since the OLPC XO-1 CPU is programable with x86 assembly language.
> k: I believe in competing models, different states (nations, corporations) trying different approaches.
> g: I prefer co-operating models wherein we learn from each others different approaches with
> the goal of improving the learner's environment and positively affective the learner's success potential.
> k: For marketing purposes, we intimate that if your high school doesn't teach you any SQL, you
> should be concerned, very concerned
> g: Perhaps one should be even more concerned if there's too much emphasis on SQL ...
> there are other potentially better ways to stream and process data than via the relational
> database model. Not every data mapping fits conveniently into tuples; otherwise,
> normalization might be more normal.
> k: ... calling for a nationalized curriculum with some top-down "advisory board" (guffaw).
> g: I think I'm agreeing with kirby here. National goals are good things, e.g.,
> the spirit of the "No child left behind" act. **
> ** http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/index.html
> The problem is that nationalized curricula can too swiftly become a political vehicle
> for denial of services and thus restricting otherwise possible growth. A not so
> abstract example is the absense in many locales of effective sex education and
> the corresponding number of illegitimate enfants born because of ignorance
> induced pregnancies caused by myths such as "You can't get pregnant the first
> time you have sexual intercourse".
> k: prodigies fall through the cracks way too often
> g: agreed. apparently the world's smartest person is employed as a bartender.
> it pains me when imho a good mind goes to waste.
> at the same time, many minds could still be more productive and more rounded in humanistic
> and scientific ways with a better educational system ... too often some educational systems
> want to separate carpenters from financial wizards. This practice forgets the fact that
> many of us are late bloomers and also that in the care of different gardeners, we might
> blossom in unforeseen ways.
> k: Great song about that guy [Srinivasa Ramanujan] http://www.archive.org/details/Ramanujan
> g: thanks!!!
> k: http://worldgame.blogspot.com/search?q=Ramanujan
> g: more thanks!!! Fuller would have liked to have seen an experiment where 100 000 persons
> were paid NOT to work. He felt one of them would be likely to make a grand contribution
> to society that would justify the experiment. I like to think Fuller almost correct; imho,
> I think that collectively, they sum of the participants' contributions would justify the experiment.
> While we will not likely see such an experiment, it's nevertheless possible that
> equivalent societal benefits might occur if schemes (sic) like OLPC become successes.
> k: anyone not being taught any SQL in high school would count as a member of an oppressed group
> g: but nowhere nearly as oppressed as the children who die of hunger related diseases,
> one every few seconds.
> k: human resources (matching the right folks to the right positions).
> g: I've been around since before the term "human resources" was introduced AFAIK;
> when first introduced, the emphasis was on "human"; in the last few decades, the
> emphasis has shifted from "human" to "resources" and not in a positive way.
> i.e., humans are now seen as resources, specifically as things rather than as people.
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
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